I am sick of the slaughter in Gaza

[malaise]

Who is going to stop Bibi and the complicit West?

More innocents died today.

[Jose Garcia]

1. The Palestinian terrorists releasing all of the hostages would likely go a long way to achieving this

[womanofthehills]

7. Obviously, Bebe doesn't care about the hostages

If he got them all back, he would not stop the killing of innocents.

It’s just horrific- American drs saying they see hundreds of little kids with gun shot wounds to their heads. Now Gaga has the most kids with amputations in the world - thousands of toddlers with no legs and arms.

Link to tweet

?s=46&t=YZgyyp4w_z7vW3neKxa6cQ

Link to tweet

?s=46&t=YZgyyp4w_z7vW3neKxa6cQ

[Beastly Boy]

64. How did the need to get them back materialize?

I don't recall...

[arthritisR_US]

72. But when you look at the news and the genocide do you recall?

[Beastly Boy]

77. Social and for-profit news media knows jack shit about genocide,

so all I recall from these sources is cheap talk.

I feel sorry for those who get informed about matters of international law by the preponderance of talking heads and influencers. .

[arthritisR_US]

81. So who/where is your source of information?

[Beastly Boy]

95. It depends on what my purpose is.

If I want to entertain myself, I go to social and for-profit media: I am a fan of conspiracy theories, and nothing beats these sources for kicks and giggles.

On matters of international law, on the other hand, I go to the Hague Conventions, the Geneva Conventions and the Rome Convention.

For world news, I go to multiple news agency sources, and I don't jump to conclusions until I read past the headlines and the first paragraph and fact-check what I read.

[yagotme]

226. And, after that, I still wait a few days, sometimes the "real" information takes awhile to come out. nt

[Voltaire2]

2. I've given up.

We are complicit in a genocide and basically nobody cares. Those who did care, for example the people involved in the campus protests, many of them have paid a heavy price. Dissent has been effectively suppressed.

When my grandchildren ask, in honesty I'll have to respond: 'I did nothing to stop it'.

[Mike 03]

20. I've given up too. Last year at this time I tended to have

Al Jazeera on in the office basically all day. I also sent comments to Biden, Harris and the State Department (and our U.N. ambassador) on a regular basis. But it was stupid and hopeless. Around July I had to stop paying attention to this entirely. I also subscribe to Haaretz but I haven't even been on that website since probably September.

[Kaleva]

83. What one does depends on how important the issue is

People like Gandhi, MLK. Malcom X, Nelson Mandela, Harvey Milk, the anti Vietnam War protestors and others risked being beaten, jailed or losing their lives fighting, usually by peaceful means, for what they believed in.

[Wounded Bear]

3. The "American people" voted to let it go on...

to its natural conclusion, which will be Israeli annexation and development.

[Martin Eden]

104. Would a Harris administration do more to stop it than Biden did?

I doubt it.

We all know Trump can only make things worse for Palestinians, so there was no effective vote for stopping the slaughter.

[Celerity]

235. I actually think she would have. At least I hoped so, but now it will likely get much worse under Trump.

[Martin Eden]

240. Two possible reasons Kamala didn't say she would withold bombs from Israel

She didn't want to throw Joe under the bus.

Or, more likely ...

Her campaign strategists calculated that being seen as anti- Israel would hurt her worse at the polls.

[Celerity]

241. Both I would say. Good points.

[Martin Eden]

242. Aside from electoral politics, the BIG question remains:

What is the RIGHT and/or SMART thing to do?

[Celerity]

243. The opposite of what Trump will likely do.

[msfiddlestix]

120. They've got their hotels and casinos designed and ready to go, as soon as the bloody mess is bulldozed over.

[Beastly Boy]

122. Who are "they"? Where are the designs?

[MarineCombatEngineer]

123. There's a "concept" of a design.

[Beastly Boy]

124. Oh... My bad. My total lack of compassion for humanity blinded me to a concept of a design. Shame on me.

[msfiddlestix]

131. .....

[Dave Bowman]

140. Well there's this guy:

Jared Kushner says Gaza’s ‘waterfront property could be very valuable’

Donald Trump’s son-in-law also says Israel should bulldoze an area of the Negev desert and move Palestinians there.

Jared Kushner has praised the “very valuable” potential of Gaza’s “waterfront property” and suggested Israel should remove civilians while it “cleans up” the strip.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/mar/19/jared-kushner-gaza-waterfront-property-israel-negev

[Beastly Boy]

163. So the "they" are just one guy.

I remember a time when one guy was a "he".

And hotels get "designed and ready to go" all by themselves, and Israeli bulldozers are put on standby as soon as that one guy says that potentially the Gaza waterfront could be very valuable.

Never imagined how easy things get done in the most volatile part of the world.

[Dave Bowman]

170. It was an example, as you very well know.

[Beastly Boy]

176. An example of what?

Anything related to "They've got their hotels and casinos designed and ready to go, as soon as the bloody mess is bulldozed over."?

Hardly. And you know it.

[Dave Bowman]

179. Lol. Keep digging, Beast.

[IamHappy]

180. Stop Being Silly

Stop being Silly this is a very serious issue. If you are bored watch FOX news.

[Beastly Boy]

181. Believe me, I am very serious.

And I am keenly aware when I am being herded. The minute I smell bullshit, I call it, in the most civil ways circumstances allow, but in no uncertain terms.

That, BTW, would include my pushback on the Fox News reference in your post. I am not letting it slide.

[H2O Man]

165. Wait!

Might that be a mere coincidence?

[Dave Bowman]

168. Of course, silly me. :)

[elias7]

4. I blame Hamas for hiding in, around and under its women and children.

I blame Hamas for starting a war they could not possibly fight, knowing that the world would be receiving horrifying visual feeds of the children whose deaths are on those who have put and kept them in danger.

Kudos to Hamas for convincing the world that there is nothing wrong with hiding under hospitals and schools and mosques and homes.

I blame Hamas for blocking innocent civilian egress to safety zones

I blame Hamas for stealing food trucks and selling them to their own citizens

Kudos to Hamas for convincing the world that the sovereign nation they attacked is not only responsible for feeding, providing water and electricity to the entity that attacked them, but also responsible for a starvation that is actually non-existent and could only happen because Hamas is hijackung aid trucks.

I blame Hamas for failing to negotiate/adhere to a meaningful ceasefire or surrender given how many of their own people have died.

I blame the media for not realizing that no one has died of natural causes in Gaza for a year (all counted as war casualties), for not realizing that Hamas has changed the age and sex of many dead so as to increase women and children counts, for failing to report that there have been more births than deaths in Gaza this year

I blame the media for failing to recognize the efforts the IDF goes to warn citizens to clear areas that are going to be bombed because… Hamas… but instead claim “genocide” when targeting civilians is exactly what Israel is trying not to do

But hey, it’s Chanukah so a guy can dream right?

Happy Holidays to you…

[brush]

6. Curious, no blame from you for the murderous warmongers Netanyahu/likud/IDF commanders who keep bombing the shit...

out of women, children, hospitals, refugee camps/ food/aide trucks and even International Kitchen operations to feed the starving Gazans...but nothing from you about blaming such killers.

[Beastly Boy]

63. A curious deflection into something that's only been mentioned a couple of dozen times in this thread alone...

[brush]

65. Which should tell you how biased, one-sided unfeeling and bereft of humanity your op is. Get a clue.

[Beastly Boy]

67. Tell me more about the bias. and give more examples, please.

Your previous post was not nearly redundant enough in this respect.

And forgive me for not making conspicuous spectacle of my humanity. I don't get a kick out of routinely showing it off.

[brush]

69. Oh, it's you, BB. I hadn't noticed before. I know ou're totally one-sided on the matter...

and I feel for you as you seem like an ok guy...except for you total lack of empathy for the suffering of innocents in Gaza.

[Beastly Boy]

73. My empathy is no one's business but my own.

Like I said, I am not keen on wearing it on my sleeve. Suffice it to say that my empathy for Gazan civilians, in deed and not in word, is likely to exceed that of the most vocal performers here on DU.

But it doesn't include performative outrage, which I find repulsive, so you may be making judgements about me without knowing anything about me.

[brush]

75. Let's not go any further with this, pls.

[Beastly Boy]

79. That is my wish, and I appreciate your offer.

[Dave Bowman]

185. "my empathy for Gazan civilians, in deed and not in word, is likely to exceed that of the most vocal performers here on

DU."

So you feel superior to every DUer? Really?

[MarineCombatEngineer]

190. Here that whooshing sound going over your head?

That's the sound of you totally missing the point of the response and putting your words in his/hers mouth.

[ForgedCrank]

194. For some

reason, this is quite common here. One cannot post a logic based opinion without being accused of alternate and nefarious motives.
I don't like taking "a" side in this conflict, but I know evil when I see it. Just because I recognize that doesn't mean I sit around eagerly awaiting the next bomb run that kills innocent people, I just simply understand how it got to this point because I'd most likely be doing the same thing if someone ravaged my neighborhood and slaughtered innocent people. I'd be on a scorched earth campaign against the aggressors, regardless of what or who the hid behind.

[Beastly Boy]

218. For others, discerning between a logic-based opinion and a strawman argument is a real struggle.

And pointing this out somehow turns into an accusation of alternate and nefarious motives, followed by a long string of deflections.

...Ok, sometimes the string of deflections is not that long.

[ForgedCrank]

223. And my

point is proven once again. Thanks for the assist.

[Beastly Boy]

227. ...What was your point again?

Was it about the string of deflections not being as long as I first made it out to be?

[ForgedCrank]

228. It is

all still in post #190, no need for me to replicate it for you.

[Beastly Boy]

233. Since I am not getting your point, and since you replied to my post, and not post #190,

there is certainly a need to replicate it for me, so let me do the honors:

190. Here that whooshing sound going over your head?
Reply to Dave Bowman (Reply #185)
Sat Dec 28, 2024, 07:45 AM
That's the sound of you totally missing the point of the response and putting your words in his/hers mouth.

Neither post 190 nor your response to it refer to the point you are making, or in what way you propose it was proven. In fact, neither one shows that any point was made by you in the first place.

So... what is your point, exactly?

[ForgedCrank]

234. I'll go over it, but in smaller pieces for you.

For some
Reply to MarineCombatEngineer
Sat Dec 28, 2024, 11:57 AM
reason, this is quite common here. One cannot post a logic based opinion without being accused of alternate and nefarious motives.
I don't like taking "a" side in this conflict, but I know evil when I see it. Just because I recognize that doesn't mean I sit around eagerly awaiting the next bomb run that kills innocent people, I just simply understand how it got to this point because I'd most likely be doing the same thing if someone ravaged my neighborhood and slaughtered innocent people. I'd be on a scorched earth campaign against the aggressors, regardless of what or who the hid behind.

1) " this is quite common here"
"common" means that something happens here a lot. "Here" meaning DU. I thought that was easy enough to understand, but I guess not.

If you read #190, you should see that I am referencing the other posters statement "putting your words in his/hers mouth"
If you cannot understand those words, please refer to the other poster. I was able to comprehend the statement on my own.

2)

One cannot post a logic based opinion without being accused of alternate and nefarious motives

I'm not certain how to explain this to you in simpler terms, but I'll give it a shot. For example, when posting a current event that is factual, it is common here for people to make accusations of peddling right wing talking points, or even accusing the poster of being MAGA, all because said fact may run counter to the attackers desires. To add, I find that disingenuous at best. sSome folks are just unable to cope with things they don't like, even raw information.

If you need further clarification, I do not believe I can properly conduct a class on communications here in the forums. But things such as demonizing the "straw man" are not a counter argument at all. It is simply an attempt to discredit the poster rather than addressing the content of a given discussion.

Good luck to you.

[Beastly Boy]

236. Ok, I guess I did need to go over it in smaller pieces and in proper order.

Apologies for the unwarranted snark.

[Dave Bowman]

222. "Here* that whooshing sound going over your head?"

*ear

[MarineCombatEngineer]

224. Wow!!!!

When did DU get a Department of Spelling Police?

[Beastly Boy]

193. No, but I certainly feel superior to the purveyors of performative outrage, and not just on DU.

You should read what you are responding to, and quit making stuff up. Both are good practices worth devoting some time to, preferably before posting responses.

[malaise]

187. Never

Rec

[womanofthehills]

9. When America drs are seeing toddlers with gun shots in their heads

DAILY??? Killing 5 journalists in their Press Vehicle yesterday??? Killing and torturing doctors ????? Dropping bombs on families of drs, writers, professors- give us a break about Hamas hiding everywhere.

Just reported this week - a four yr old was playing in his yard, Israeli commander walked up to him and broke his arm and leg.

We have all seen the videos.

[IbogaProject]

12. You are aware they came to power directly with Bibi support years ago?

And that support continued right up to Oct 7.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

That may not cover all the details of his support of them when they rose to power but I don't wan't to argue about sources of information and I'll leave it at this.

I just searched Google for Netanyahu supported hamas rise

I had seen the above article soon after Oct 7 last year.

[people]

13. Did you see these articles from Haaretz?

https://www.haaretz.com/search-results?q=killing+zones

Israel Created 'Kill Zones' in Gaza. Anyone Who Crosses Into Them Is Shot



https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-12-18/ty-article-magazine/.premium/idf-soldiers-expose-arbitrary-killings-and-rampant-lawlessness-in-gazas-netzarim-corridor/00000193-da7f-de86-a9f3-fefff2e50000

Terrorist': IDF Soldiers Expose Arbitrary Killings and Rampant Lawlessness in Gaza's Netzarim Corridor



Random slaughter of civilians by anyone, including Israel, U.S., Russia, Syria or any other country is wrong and abhorrent. You must recognize that.

[ZRB]

15. This. So much this.

I also find it interesting that there's a lot of overlap between those whining and crying about a made-up genocide, and those who are totally fine with vigilante murder (if they don't personally like the victim). That's why their frequent "all human life is precious" posts fall flat with me.

[erodriguez]

22. Israel imilitary just assumes that any Palestinian man is Hamas

No skin off their back.

[snot]

26. Israel's produced precious little evidence that

there've actually been any Hamas fighters hiding out in all the hospitals and other protected facilities it's bombed; and per international law, (1) the burden of proving that a protected facility is harboring fighters is on the one who would attack the facility, (2) if there's any doubt that such a facility is harboring fighters, the attacker must assume that it isn't, (3) the attack must be proportionate, meaning that while it may seek to neutralize enemy fighters, it may not gratuitously bomb the entire hospital or other facility to the ground, and (4) any military operation around or within such facilities must take all feasible precautions to minimize harm to patients, medical staff, and other civilians, including effective warnings and a reasonable opportunity for patients et al. to be evacuated.

[Beastly Boy]

220. That didn't age well, did it?Less than 24 hours after the end of operation, the evidence. And it's just a start.

Last edited Sun Dec 29, 2024, 04:41 PM - Edit history (1)

As in most other past instances, names, ranks and positions of the terror operatives, corroborated by the records kept by their superiors, is to be expected.

IDF completes raid on north Gaza hospital, says some 240 terror suspects arrested

The Israeli military says it has completed its operation against Hamas at northern Gaza’s Kamal Adwan Hospital and the surrounding area, during which some 240 suspected terror operatives were detained, including the medical center’s director and 15 terrorists who participated in the October 7, 2023, onslaught.

The Israeli military says it has completed its operation against Hamas at northern Gaza’s Kamal Adwan Hospital and the surrounding area, during which some 240 suspected terror operatives were detained, including the medical center’s director and 15 terrorists who participated in the October 7, 2023, onslaught. The IDF said it had intelligence of the hospital “returning to being used as a Hamas terror stronghold and a shelter for terrorists, despite repeated calls to refrain from allowing [terror operatives] to exploit hospitals for military activities.”

--snip--

Before launching the operation, the IDF says it enabled the evacuation of 350 patients, caregivers, and medical personnel to other hospitals, in an effort coordinated by the Defense Ministry’s Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories (COGAT). Also during the weeks prior to the operation, “tens of thousands of liters of fuel, food, and medical supplies for the essential functioning of the hospital” were delivered to Kamal Adwan.

During the raid itself, the IDF says another 95 patients, caregivers, and medical personnel were evacuated from Kamal Adwan to the nearby Indonesian Hospital, where 5,000 liters of fuel, two generators, and medical equipment were delivered, “to maintain and operate essential systems in the hospital.”

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-completes-raid-on-north-gaza-hospital-says-some-240-terror-suspects-arrested/

Would you like to count the number of violations at the hospital, each and every one of them making its protected status void under international law?

[snot]

237. Thank you. Could you please provide the source for your info?

Because the news I'm seeing is that there's little or no corroboration for many IDF claims.

[Beastly Boy]

238. Sorry, here it is:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-completes-raid-on-north-gaza-hospital-says-some-240-terror-suspects-arrested/

Adding the link to the post

[snot]

239. Fwiw, here is the Guardian's account of what appears to be the same attack:

(via @groundloop at https://www.democraticunderground.com/10143363584 )

Source: The Guardian

The World Health Organization says it is “appalled” by an Israeli raid which it said had shut down and partly destroyed the last major hospital still functioning in northern Gaza.

Israel’s “systematic dismantling of the health system” combined with a siege of the population in the north of the coastal strip over the past 80 days “puts the lives of the 75,000 Palestinians remaining in the area at risk”, the WHO said.

It cited initial reports that some departments of the Kamal Adwan hospital in Beit Lahia “were burnt and severely damaged during the raid, including the laboratory, surgical unit, engineering and maintenance department, operations theatre, and the medical store”.

Local sources in Beit Lahia said that most of the medics and nurses detained in Friday’s raid had been released but the hospital’s director, Hussam Abu Safiya, was still unaccounted for.

Read more: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/dec/28/who-appalled-by-israel-attack-on-northern-gazas-last-functioning-major-hospital

[Beastly Boy]

244. Yes, I read the article.

It appears that WHO relied heavily on the sources on the ground and did not independently verify them.

IDF relied on its own intelligence which may or may not have included sources on the ground. However, at least some of that intelligence is verifiable, and other information IDF provided may not have been available to WHO at the time of their report.

[PhylliPretzel]

30. What you write

is zionist propaganda.
There is no proof to these allegations.

[Beastly Boy]

71. Except confessions of Hamas leaders of doing just that.

Recorded on video, written into their charter, repeated and practiced daily.

Those Hamas leaders must be very effective and zealous Zionist propagandists!

[arthritisR_US]

80. Post those videos, we would like to see your proof.

[Beastly Boy]

96. If you insist.

&t=8s

&t=42s

https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-official-ghazi-hamad-we-will-repeat-october-seven-until-israel-annihilated-victims-everything-we-do-justified

https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-leader-abroad-khaled-mashal-october-seven-israeli-civlians-no-apologies-hizbullah-arab-countries-do-more

&t=46s

Ok, you saw my proof. Who else were you speaking for? Will you show them the proof now?

[Dave Bowman]

87. "confessions of Hamas leaders"

Confessions obtained under torture aren't worth a damn thing.

[Beastly Boy]

97. Doesn't look like these Hamas terrorists are being tortured, does it?

&t=8s

&t=42s

https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-official-ghazi-hamad-we-will-repeat-october-seven-until-israel-annihilated-victims-everything-we-do-justified

https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-leader-abroad-khaled-mashal-october-seven-israeli-civlians-no-apologies-hizbullah-arab-countries-do-more

&t=46s

[Dave Bowman]

137. This is a good example of non sequitur with a dash of Israeli propaganda and two scoops of bullshit in the mix.

[Beastly Boy]

142. Are you saying they DO look like they are being tortured?

Your post, in its entirety:

"confessions of Hamas leaders"
Confessions obtained under torture aren't worth a damn thing.

My response to it: showing videos of Hamas leaders, not under torture, openly admitting on record that the actions they have taken were intended and are intended in the foreseeable future to to cause untold deaths among Gazan civilians, or, as they call them, "martyrs". The recorded testimony of Hamas leaders themselves, with nothing added by me, addresses your post directly and in no uncertain terms, making the premise of your post fly right out the window.

Unless you want to change your premise and just admit that their confessions aren't worth shit regardless of circumstances... where the hell is the promised non-sequitur?

And unless you are proposing that Hamas leaders in question are all engaged in a dash of Israeli propaganda, who else is there providing the testimony you call Israeli propaganda?

[Dave Bowman]

147. I wasn't talking about these guys and your reply has nothing to do with the op.

Can you prove that nobody from hamas (or not even related to that terrorist organization) has ever been tortured by the IDF or any Israeli organization? Or, while we're at it, has the IDF ever used Palestinians as human shield? You really are always there for damage control and pushing the official Israeli narative. So you really condone all this, these crime against humanity?

Have a nice day, Beast.

[Beastly Boy]

156. Wait a minute... let me process this... was I supposed to reply to YOUR post with something that has to do with the OP

and not YOUR post?

And was I supposed to prove that NOBODY from Hamas was tortured in response to your ridiculous presumption that ALL of them were tortured?

Once again, your post, in its entirety:

"confessions of Hamas leaders"
Confessions obtained under torture aren't worth a damn thing.

Hell yeah, it has nothing to do with the OP, so why should my response have anything to do with it?

And hell yeah, you WERE talking about these guys, and not everybody from Hamas, with the presumption of Hamas leaders confessions being obtained under torture. So why would you now want me to prove something ridiculous that you just came up with?

For someone who had used "non-sequitur" in a sentence, your understanding of the term appears to be a bit, shall we say, unique.

[Dave Bowman]

166. "your ridiculous presumption that ALL of them were tortured?"

"Since 7 October, Israeli forces have detained more than 2,200 Palestinian men and women, according to the Palestinian Prisoners’ Club. According to Israeli human rights organization HaMoked between 1 October and 1 November, the total number of Palestinians held in administrative detention, without charge or trial, rose from 1,319 to 2,070.  

Testimony from released detainees and human rights lawyers, as well as video footage and images illustrate some of the forms of torture and other ill-treatment prisoners have been subjected to by Israeli forces over the past four weeks. These include severe beatings and humiliation of detainees, including by forcing them to keep their heads down, to kneel on the floor during inmate count, and to sing Israeli songs.   

“Over the last month we have witnessed a significant spike in Israel’s use of administrative detention – detention without charge or trial that can be renewed indefinitely – which was already at a 20-year high before the latest escalation in hostilities on 7 October. Administrative detention is one of the key tools through which Israel has enforced its system of apartheid against Palestinians. Testimonies and video evidence also point to numerous incidents of torture and other ill-treatment by Israeli forces including severe beatings and deliberate humiliation of Palestinians who are detained in dire conditions,” said Heba Morayef, Regional Director for the Middle East and North Africa. "

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/11/israel-opt-horrifying-cases-of-torture-and-degrading-treatment-of-palestinian-detainees-amid-spike-in-arbitrary-arrests/

Palestinians describe being used as ‘human shields’ by Israeli troops in Gaza

Detainees say they were sent into unexplored houses and tunnels before soldiers, in violation of Geneva conventions

"After they burned down his family home in northern Gaza, Israeli troops separated Ramez al-Skafi from his family and detained him. They had a particular job in mind for him, he said.

For the next 11 days in early July, the 30-year-old Palestinian said he was sent into one house after another in his home district, Shuja’iya, watched by his Israeli military minders. According to the account he gave the Guardian, they turned him into a human shield against booby-traps and Hamas gunmen."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/oct/21/palestinians-describe-being-used-as-human-shields-by-israeli-troops-in-gaza?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

Assumptions? If ordinary Palestinians are systematically treated like this then you can be sure that hamas leaders are not getting a pass.

Can't believe that someone could support this.

Keep up the good work with concerned damage control, beast.

[Beastly Boy]

173. Why a diversion all of a sudden?

How does it relate to anything I said, including the random quote plucked out out of my post? Does it make the aforementioned presumption of yours any less ridiculous?

Are you expecting me to jump from topic to topic on your command?

Not happening.

[uponit7771]

32. This doesn't work for BB any more

[Avalon Sparks]

42. Look what you made us do" is the mentality of abusers & psychopaths.

The claim that Hamas is responsible not only for its own atrocities but also every atrocity committed by Israel has to be the most disingenuous and morally bankrupt talking points of this whole horrific episode.

Israel is the occupying force. A brutal settler, colonial, apartheid regime on course of becoming a pariah state for genocide, collective punishment and the butchering of thousands of children.
Cope.

[AloeVera]

56. I blame the gullible and/or complicit for uncritically spewing Israeli propaganda.

That is totally discredited by facts and reality as stated by even IDF reservists who have been sickened by what they have witnessed and done. The IDF are shooting any civilians who unwittingly enter their kill-zones - kids too, looking for food and water - and leaving the bodies for the dogs to eat. Those civilians are of course then counted by the IDF as Hamas terrorists. Obviously not counted as civilians, those dogs tell no tales.

Just one example, there is even worse. All of the ugliness readily available to anyone who dares - or cares- to look in search of the unvarnished truth, leaving the propaganda behind.

I blame the IDF for bombing targets the moment they enter their homes thus ensuring their entire families and neighbours are killed too. The AI program "Where's Daddy" created for this purpose by some very twisted minds.

I blame the IDF and Israel for the total destruction where even water towers, water pipes and sewage treatment plants are bombed, repair crews also, thus ensuring gross suffering and spread of diseases and preventable deaths.

I blame the IDF and Israel for their systematic, planned and deliberate blockade of aid and food. To the point now where aid is reduced to 65 trucks a day, whereas it was 500 before Oct. 7th. I blame them for their malice and inhumanity.

I will never forgive Israel, nor their complicit partners and their propaganda-filled enablers.

I think about the suffering in Gaza and am horrified beyond words.

Gaza is now a land of well-fed wild dogs. I will never understand how it was allowed to come to this, but I do know the LIES and propaganda played a big part. Regrettably, they still do, but their power and reach is surely diminishing.

[akbacchus_BC]

111. Don't support Starbucks either, every cup of beverage purchased, a percentage goes to Israel. People

need to be aware of blood countries they are supporting!

[Beastly Boy]

125. Are you telling me there are still progressive types overpaying for that muddy piss just to show off?

Man, they must be some uncompromising Zionists, willing to suffer this indignity for Israel's sake!

[comradebillyboy]

113. Spot on! thank you.

[Fichefinder]

5. Congo and Darfur are much more concerning

[womanofthehills]

10. No place is more concerning than the other

All atrocities are concerning!

[Arazi]

11. Uh huh. How curious far worse slaughters NEVER get mentioned

… cough #NoJews cough…

[comradebillyboy]

115. Excellent observation. There are any number of

places in Africa and the Middle East where the horrific slaughter is ignored because no Jews are involved.

[iemanja]

85. Then please do post some OPs on them

with information to educate DU's readership. That might be helpful, but it requires caring about those places besides their rhetorical purpose of excusing Israel for its actions.

[comradebillyboy]

116. Nobody really cares about those places because

Israel isn't doing the killing.

[iemanja]

145. We cared about Iraq

When the US was doing the killing. Perhaps it’s you who don’t care?

[Arazi]

8. No words for Sudan again I see...

With a FAR worse actual genocide and starving population

That is all ...

[quakerboy]

19. I'm curious

I genuinely don't know. Are my tax dollars funding the war in sudan? As an American, is my government propping up either side of that conflict?

[Arazi]

21. The OP is about the slaughter of innocents

No mention of US involvement.

Just death.

That’s what I was addressing. Only this conflict merits its own forum and hundreds of posts in GD when other FAR WORSE actual genocides and deliberate mass starvation events are happening right now.

They never get mentioned. Is it really about brutal human suffering in conflict zones or… 🤔

FWIW, the US is involved in providing humanitarian aid only to Sudan since there isn’t a Congressional mandate of several decades to arm one side there. We also supply one the largest humanitarian aid packages to Gaza and the West Bank. Plus we pay neighboring countries billions annually to * not* attack Israel

[quakerboy]

41. The dead and hungry

Are just as dead and hungry regardless of how one wants to classify a war.

But this is primarily a US discussion board. And, however small, we here on this board usually have a vote towards and a part in what is happening with things that the USA is involved in. So those conflicts are almost certain to loom larger and see more discussion here.

[Arazi]

43. US involvement isn't the point of the OP however

Just the suffering of innocents and who will “stop the slaughter and Bibi”. Why isn’t that question ever asked about what’s happening in Darfur? Or Congo?

We’ve certainly financially - either overtly or covertly - contributed to the death and destruction in many other genocides and mass starvation conflicts, yet only the I/P conflict ignites such fury. No other current or past crisis in the 20 years of DU elicits this reaction

[quakerboy]

48. Id say it is.

And thus your question answers itself.

Why is that the question about Bibi and not about Darfur.. Because America has (had?) power to effect change in Israel. Not so much in Darfur. Because, to the best of my knowledge, I am (via my citizenship), complicit in the deaths in Gaza, while I am, to the best of my knowledge, not complicit in the deaths in Darfur.

But you are always welcome to start the discussion about Darfur. Or Congo. Or continue to "whatabout" a discussion about their personal internal struggle over the tens of thousands of deaths in Gaza that someone else started. Because, at least for the moment, we still sorta have free speech.

[Arazi]

49. Why can't we effect change in Darfur? Or Congo?

Or all of the other FAR WORSE genocide and mass starvation conflicts going on right now? How do you know that?

(And I have tried to start discussions on other conflict areas- they sink like a stone. Nobody cares here)

[quakerboy]

74. How?

First off, I dont really believe in worse genocide. Dead is dead, starved is starved, suffering is suffering. No one wins a suffer-off, and trying to pit one abused group against another abused group.. seems disingenuous to me. A distraction from meaningful conversation.

That on the table, Ive literally never heard anyone propose any solution to Darfur other than hope and prayer. And if those worked, it surely would be solved by now. Do we have any actual levers that would resolve this other than bomb everyone till they hate us more than each other? And do I bear culpability in the situation in Darfur, as I do in Israel?

[Arazi]

92. Removing US aid would not stop Israeli action in Gaza

Pretty sure that point’s been beaten to death here.

Do you think that if the US removed itself entirely from the ME that our/your/the world’s gaze would turn to conflicts in Africa? Spoiler alert: we (a collective global “we”) have a long history of not giving a shit about those genocides and wars.

I stipulate that the real reason folks care so much about I/P to the exclusion of virtually anything else is because it’s Jews and Israel. Period

[quakerboy]

134. I dont agree. Period.

It may be for you. But it is not for me.

And the point beaten to death has been discussed, never agreed, and never actually tried.

As to the other.. less suffering is less suffering. Its not a suffering olympics, and I dont have to resolve every problem in the world for it to be worth trying to solve, or even just contemplate how one issue or area might be improved.

[iemanja]

82. I just did a search under your name for Darfur, Congo, and Sudan

I found no OPs on the first two and one on the second. https://www.democraticunderground.com/100218535591
Yet you decided to make it about Jews, and implicitly, about Israel.

[Arazi]

93. It's not about *my* fixation

It’s about everyone else’s with Jews and Israel. Exactly my point

[iemanja]

144. Your singular point

Is to justify mass murder by Israel. Primary among those who don’t care would appear to be yourself, or you would discuss it in its own right rather than as a cudgel against those who have the audacity to care about mass murder.

[iemanja]

78. It's a very short post and not difficult to read

It talks about the complicity of the West. The USA is part of the West. Why haven't you posted threads about the Darfur or Congo if you care so much?

[Arazi]

94. Again I repeat, it's not *my* fixation

It’s about everyone else’s fixation to the exclusion of anything else.

Perhaps do a search on their names to see if they’ve ever made threads on any other conflicts if they care so much about suffering innocents.

[iemanja]

143. You're the one continually raising it as an excuse.

[sarisataka]

23. I'm curious

does a genocide only "count" if our tax dollars are involved?

If so, that would explain why so little attention is given to Darfur, Sudan, Nigeria, Myanmar, Congo, the Rohingya, the Uyghur, Tigrayans- all classed as genocide emergencies by Genocide Watch

[quakerboy]

40. There is a difference in power over the situation, in my perception

Aside from the option of sending troops into each of those locations, what power does the US have over each of these conflicts.

I currently perceive these as being very different. I'm open to being persuaded that i am incorrect on this

The dead are just as dead regardless of which conflict. A person suffering is suffering no matter where or why. But, at least for me personally, the ones that i have at least a 330,000,000'th of a vote to effect and that the taxes i pay may be causing bear far more personal contemplation/reflection.

[iemanja]

84. No, but it makes us as taxpayers complicit in the genocide

when we pay for it.

[Beastly Boy]

99. Just to show how superficial and fallacious this argument is,

consider your share of the taxes only making you complicit in Israel fighting Hamas, PIJ, Hezbollah, ISIS, Iran, as well as providing incredibly effective shelters and defenses for its ten million civilians, including women, children, and two million Palestinian Arabs, and my share of the taxes making me complicit in what you call genocide, to be condemned by all the self-appointed genocide experts for all eternity.

It's a win-win. Since I am aware of what genocide is and what it is not, I am impervious to being shamed by ill-informed purveyors of performative outrage, and you can rest easy knowing that your taxpayer dollars only go to the most worthy of causes.

Deal?

[womanofthehills]

53. 62,000 is the number of dead I see for Sudan

Including those unaccounted for under the rubble - 100,000 is a number often used for Gaza deaths. It’s all horrific and evil.

However, our tax dollars are funding the Gaza genocide and obviously there are more reporters in Gaza (although over 200 press people have been killed in Gaza) - the largest number of press killed in any world conflict. It’s the dead and dismembered kids of Gaza we are seeing day after day after day on our phones. This is dividing our country as the young are becoming more and more anti-war and hopefully they will have an impact.

[EX500rider]

66. Sudan: "..up to 150,000 people had been killed in the conflict across the country."

Famine has spread to five areas, with 24.6 million people - about half the population - in urgent need of food aid, the experts said.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cz0rp93vdnzo


"100,000 is a number often used for Gaza deaths."
More than 45,000 Palestinians have been killed in Israel's offensive, Gaza's health ministry says.

[iemanja]

76. Whataboutism

Doesn't make anything better other than showing your lack of concern for the dead in Gaza. You are free to post a thread on the Sudan anytime, and you could then stimulate all the discussion you want on that topic. Have you? Why not? The sole purpose seems to be a rather feeble attempt to distract from the slaughter of civilians by Israel. Major fail.

[BlueWaveNeverEnd]

14. me too

[perdita9]

16. Why do posts like this never mention Hamas?

I'm no fan of Bibi, but he's not the only bad guy in the equation

[BannonsLiver]

37. Because Hamas are "freedom fighters like Mandela"

According to some here.

[mr715]

52. Hamas:

Is a useful label.

I sure hope no one supports Hamas. We'd devolve into a metadiscussion about the rights of free speech within fundamentalist societies.


In re Bibi: if you want to play at Democracy, hold yourself to democracy's standards.

And yet - we just elected Trump so I don't want to moralize too hard.


MR

[womanofthehills]

54. Because it's not a war - it's a one way slaughter

The people of Gaza are trapped on a tiny peace of land. They have no army. It’s just a daily slaughter of women and children.

A moral army does shoot toddlers in the head day after day - this has been reported by American drs returning from Gaza.

[Beastly Boy]

62. So who's been killing IDF soldiers and Israeli civilians?

Who's been firing thousands of mnissiles from schools, hospitals and mosques into Israel?

Who's been holding hostages?

Who's been hiding in hundreds of miles of tunnels under schools, hospitals and mosques?

Who's been hiding behind Gazan civilians?

Who's been "regrouping" in designated humanitarian areas?

Let me guess... starving children, right?

[lees1975]

70. Hamas and Hezbollah did not form in a political vacuum.

There's a long history there and there's more than one side to it. And the trouble didn't start on October 7th.

[Beastly Boy]

102. Of course not. They wouldn't exist if Iran didn't prop them up in their quest to destabilize the entire region.

[lees1975]

114. The reason for their formation and existence was present long before Iran got involved.

Try European colonialism and economic exploitation, specifically the British Empire's way of handling "subjugated" people, prior to World War 2 and that will give you a good idea of where most of the motivation behind both organizations came from. But I have few expectations that there will ever be much understanding of it in this country.

[Beastly Boy]

119. Hamas was founded in 1987. Hezbollah was founded in 1985.

Don't try to pull that European colonialism and economic exploitation BS on me: over half of Israel's Jews are of Middle Eastern and North African descent, who have nothing to do with Europe.

...Don't tell me this is news to you!

[JohnSJ]

106. I think you are well aware of the reason. Just as an example, after Oct 7, there was sparce condemnation of what Hamas

did here, but the rationalization justifying it was disgraceful and more than obvious, and when some Democratic politicians went OUT of there way NOT to condemn what Hamas did in the immediate aftermath October 7, the defenders of those politicans by some here spoke volumes.

Just examine the threads here throughout the years, the anti-Israeli bias demonstrated, regardless of who was at fault, has always gravitated against Israel.

If Israel is attacked, it is always Israel's fault, and I would speculate it involves more than just an anti-Israeli sentiment.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

117. Great post.

[AloeVera]

157. Because now it's not Hamas doing the slaughtering?

People tend to pay attention to the slaughters happening in front of them, for nearly 15 months.

My question is what do the Hamas atrocities have to do with Israel's multifold atrocities? Do they excuse it, justify it, mitigate it, erase it or what?

If one atrocity cancelled out another, Hamas would be squeaky clean by now. But that's not how it works. Unless you're Israel of course. Then you're allowed to commit atrocities forever...because HAMAS!!

[Beastly Boy]

225. You are presuming that hiding among civilians in humanitarian zones is not an atrocity.

You are presuming that "martyring" them as a deliberate strategy to achieve military and political objectives is not an atrocity.

You are presuming that firing missiles from schools and mosques across international borders into civilian population cent3rs in Israel is not an atrocity.

You are presuming that turning refugee centers into military objects on a regular basis is not an atrocity.

You are presumong that stealing food and medical supplies from the civilians they are supposed to protect is not an atrocity.

You are presuming that any atrocity inflicted on the Gazans by Hamas, PIJ, and a whole alphabet of terrorist factions is not an atrocity.

And these atrocities are happening in front of you now, and have been happening for nearly 15 months.

But, to paraphrase Orwell, you are presuming that some atrocities are more equal than others.

[surfered]

17. It is a reason there will never be peace. Violence begets violence and revenge seems to be a basic human instinct.

[quakerboy]

18. real talk: no one.

Barring some kind of drastic change of situation in israel itself, It's not stopping untill theres noone left to kill. A vote for Trump was a vote to allow nettenyahu to do literally whatever he wants in gaza. The only reason there may be Palestinians alive in Gaza 6 months from now is that it may still be politically useful to bibi to have active war.

[2naSalit]

24. K&R

[Clouds Passing]

25. The bib got dump elected.

[sarisataka]

35. Others want credit as well

Link to tweet

[maxsolomon]

28. Hamas is going to stop "Bibi and the Complicit West" by returning the hostages.

There was a meeting in Egypt last week with a ceasefire supposedly in the offing. Nothing came of it, again.

Not clear what they're waiting for at this point. Maybe they no longer have the organizational capacity to agree to a ceasefire.

Or Netanyahu's waiting until 1/20 so MFer can take the credit.

[MuchBetterThanThis]

29. I gave up on Israel when Bibi

Came to power beforehand.
There’s no way there can be peace anywhere when you have narcissistic, power hungry, $$$- loving people in charge.
Human rights don’t matter. And I hate to say it but that goes for our “beloved” United States too for supporting such barbarism for far too long.
It’s embarrassing

[enid602]

39. Aid

I gave up on Israel in November when the Jewish members of the Knesset all voted to keep UNRWA from returning to Gaza. No aid. We can’t keep blaming this shit on BiBi.

[Richard D]

31. The hostages have been in the terror tunnels for well over a year.

We think that there are a hundred left living, but Hamas will not say.

They are:

- Being subjected to sexual assault
-have burns inflicted upon them by hot metal objects
-Are forced to watch graphic footage of the Oct. 7 massacre perpetrated by Hamas
-their hair is pulled out.
-They are left tied and bound for many hours or even days
-they are forced to watch fellow hostages die
-they are not allowed to see their families
-they have surgeries and medical procedures performed without painkillers or anesthesia
-women are used as sexual slaves.

But apparently, to many here, this does not matter.

Not to mention that tens of thousands of rockets have been shot into Israel from Gaza.
Not to mention that given the slightest chance, they would do more Oct 7 massacres.
Not to mention that they have refused all hostage release proposals
Not to mention that this war has the lowest civilian-to-military kill rate of any urban war ever.
Not to mention that virtually all "news" out of Gaza is manipulated, and much is fabricated.
Not to mention that the population of Gaza continues to increase - Jews are just bad at genocide.
Not to mention that if you are siding with Hamas, you are siding with Iran.
Not to mention that al Jazzerra is a propaganda arm of Iran and lies like crazy.
Not to mention that despite your hatred of Netanyahu and Israelis, the war would end very soon after the hostages are released.
Not to mention that many 13-year-olds and up are Hamas soldiers.
Not to mention that if a Gazan kills a Jew, they are paid for doing so.
Not to mention that if a Hamas terrorist is killed, the family will get plenty of money from Hamas. Maybe more than the Hamas person could make.
Not to mention that if "genocide" was Israel's goal, there would have been zero residents of Gaza left alive by November 2023

And yes, it is tragic that some innocents are killed and maimed. It's never a good idea to start a war.

But yeah, globalize the intifada and kill all Jews. You know, Christians are next on their list.

Who can stop Netanyahu? Maybe, but doubtfully Iran. Seems like a lot of people are on their side.

[Avalon Sparks]

45. Someone give Israel their own planet, in another galaxy please

Don't talk to me about October 7. Don't talk to me about hostages. I don't care. I haven't cared for months. Many, many times more Gazans are dying and suffering than the number of Israelis who died and are suffering. That means the death and suffering of Palestinians is much more urgent and matters much more than the death and suffering of Israelis. The only way to disagree with this is to believe Israeli lives are worth much, much more than Palestinian lives.

[NickB79]

46. If you can't care about the hostages Hamas took, you can't care about the civilians killed in the war either

Anything else is pure hypocrisy. Innocent lives are innocent lives.

I'm sure the hostages in the tunnels still alive, and their families, also feel a serious sense of urgency after a year of being held by a terrorist group though.

[Richard D]

47. You're right . . .

. . . Proportionality is important. A careful tally should have been made of all Hamas killed on October 7, and Israel should have stopped when exactly that number of Gazans had lost their lives. The tally should also have included rapes, dismemberment, beheadings, torture, nails being driven into the genitals of Israeli women, babies burned in ovens in front of their parents, fetuses ripped out of their mother's womb, kidnappings, burning in cars, RPG's in rooms full of civilians begging for their lives, etc., and in the spirit of proportionality, all of those should have been done to Gazans. It's only fair, after all, isn't it?

The comment you made, really, is based on the utterly ridiculous and downright stupid idea being promulgated to that useful idiot's lap-up like starving dogs that Israel is doing what it is doing for revenge.

Revenge has nothing to do with it. They need to make `100% certain that Gaza, er, Hamas, can never again have the chance to repeat Oct 7. So yeah, it sucks. Badly. But the terror tunnels need to be destroyed, weapons have to be destroyed, and Hamas has to be destroyed. Sadly, innocents die in urban warfare. But all of them are dying because of and with the direct force of Hamas.

I could go on, but any further comments I make might get me evicted from DU, which I don't want. But again, despicable.

[Avalon Sparks]

89. Oh I know revenge has nothing to do with it.

It’s 100% Land Grab by genocide.


“””rapes, dismemberment, beheadings, torture, nails being driven into the genitals of Israeli women, babies burned in ovens in front of their parents, fetuses ripped out of their mother's womb, kidnappings, burning in cars, RPG's in rooms full of civilians begging for their lives, etc.””””

Just atrocity propaganda Hasbara BS.

There is absolutely no evidence any of those things happened. NO EVIDENCE!

Exactly 1 Israel baby was killed on 10/7.

[Beastly Boy]

105. This word salad is as meaningless as it is familiar.

Pure BS out of Iran's shadier troll farm corners.

Not even Al Jazeera would touch this crap with a ten foot pole.

[AloeVera]

127. It infuriates me.

The atrocity propaganda STILL being repeated. Sick war porn.

And you know what? Even IF every single false atrocity propaganda were 100% true, it STILL would not justify the malicious cruelty and barbarism inflicted on Palestinians.

I don't know what infuriates me more, the willful repetition of disproved propaganda to excuse the genocide, or the moral blindness and superiority required to not SEE that nothing justifies the evil of Israel's own actions.
🤮

[ZRB]

139. Ah so Jewish people defending themselves is pure evil.

Got it. They should just surrender and let Hamas lob missiles at them because “Israel evil.”

[AloeVera]

153. Evil is evil, even when Jews are committing it.

No special dispensation given.

I believe GWB is evil too, for unleashing hell on the Iraqi and Afghani people.

Israel has methodically and systematically destroyed all public and medical services, implemented a near-blockade of food and medical aid, cut off water and destroyed water facilities, destroyed most homes, killing the 45k we know of but also buried tens of thousands under rubble or left them to be eaten by dogs that we don't know of. The inevitable consequence of all this will be indirect deaths in the hundreds of thousands. Israel knows all this.

Evil with malice aforethought is very evil indeed.

Defense? The only thing Israel is "defending" itself against now is the right of Palestinians to live on the land Israel covets.

[yagotme]

229. So, you agree then, that Hamas is very evil?

Evil with malice aforethought is very evil indeed.

Hamas planned the Oct 7 raid, therefore, "aforethought", right? Shouldn't this "very evil" entity be eliminated, as they will most likely do it again, if allowed to?

[Beastly Boy]

232. And routinely disregarding evil with one conspicuous exception smacks of special dispensation, doesn't it?

[Dave Bowman]

183. Wanna cracker, Polly?

[Richard D]

148. "False atrocity propaganda" . . .

. . . well, I'm glad you showed your true disgusting colors. Please look up definition of "Antisemite," then, "Useful Idiot."

They both fit you to perfection.

And yes. All of what you call "disproved propaganda" has video and eye-witness evidence, so it's only "disproved" in the eyes of malignant antisemites. Enjoy being a member of the crowd of true abhorrents.

[AloeVera]

155. Touched a nerve...

It is your response that is abhorrent and disgusting.

I stand by what I said.

The babies in ovens, the babies ripped from wombs... long ago discredited. Did not happen. Just like the 40 beheaded babies.

The only babies burned, beheaded, shredded and ripped from wombs by bombs are Palestinian babies. About a thousand of them. Not counting the ones still buried under rubble, many having died terrifying, agonizing slow deaths.

Call me anti-semite or any other names, I don't care, I was expecting it. I don't pay attention to people who try to cover up and excuse actual war crimes and atrocities by reciting discredited atrocity propaganda.

You are now on ignore.

[Avalon Sparks]

162. Pathetic

Because Israel’s policies are illegal and so egregious, the only real rhetorical defense they have is to conflate Israel/Zionism with Judaism and accuse everyone critical of their barbaric crimes of being anti-semitic. This is an ad hominem attack and should be viewed as a childish and pathetic attempt at debate

[AloeVera]

212. Thank you for this.

It's disheartening. But not as much as seeing a post comprised of nothing but Israeli propaganda - nearly every single one - get the highest number of recs.

I thought minds on DU were changing after a year but I was wrong.

The propaganda is not sophisticated, easily discredited with the application of even scant critical thinking, an offense to the intelligence really - yet is swallowed whole by far too many. How is that possible?

Your point is a good one. How it's not self-evident that the conflation is actually contributing to anti-semitism around the world is yet another cause to despair of our collective "intelligence" and wisdom.

[Mosby]

213. New health dept report heading to the UN. (WARNING)

This is how the hostages are being treated:

"Children were forced to commit sexual acts on each other by their captures. Most of the women were sexually assaulted.”

New report prepared by dozens of experts, psychiatrists, doctors and social workers, outlines the harrowing evidence and testimonies of released Israeli hostages— confirming what we we knew about Hamas’ treatment of the hostages:

1.Systematic Sexual Abuse:
Women and children were subjected to sexual violence, including forced sexual acts between minors and sexual assaults by captors. Some women were stripped naked, groped, whipped, and tied to beds while their captors stared at them. A woman recounted being assaulted at gunpoint.

2.Torture of Children:
Children were tied up, beaten daily, and intentionally burned. Medical examinations revealed scars, burns, and signs of severe physical abuse. Some were starved and suffered traumatic experiences like being paraded with corpses.

3.Physical and Psychological Abuse: Men endured extreme physical torture, including branding with hot metal, starvation, and severe beatings across their bodies. Many captives were kept in isolation, denied access to bathrooms, and forced to relieve themselves in their confined spaces.

4.Deliberate Malnutrition: Hostages were intentionally starved, given minimal portions of rice or pita, leading to severe weight loss (10-18% of body weight). Children were particularly affected, with one case involving a child who lost 18% of their weight.

5.Psychological Torture and Humiliation: Hostages were made to witness horrific acts, including the murders, rapes, and mutilation of others, and were paraded through Gaza while crowds abused and stoned them. Many returned with severe trauma, fearing they were still in captivity or unable to eat without hoarding food.

6.Denial of Medical Care: Injured hostages and those with chronic conditions were denied medical treatment, resulting in worsening conditions and unnecessary suffering. In some cases, captors performed painful procedures without anesthesia.

The full report by Israel’s Ministry of Health was submitted to the UN this week.

Link to tweet

[MarineCombatEngineer]

214. You and I both know that there are those who will deny this

wholly because of these words:

The full report by Israel’s Ministry of Health was submitted to the UN this week.

but yet, they'll take the word of terrorists org.

I just don't get it.

Disclaimer: In no way did I name anyone here on DU.

[AloeVera]

219. Hi MCE.

Of course it's horrific.

So now what?

Genocide and ethnic cleansing full-steam ahead?

That's the problem I have. The motive and the consequences.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

221. Hi AloeVera,

I hope you and your family are having holiday break and do hope for a great New Year.

I have to disagree with the genocide and ethnic cleansing label thrown at Israel, HAMAs started this war, plain and simple, then Hizbollah decided it would be a good idea to start lobbying missiles and rockets into N. Israel, which, BTW, didn't turn out to well for them, then Iran decided to throw in their 2 cents worth and voila, here we are.
If HAMAs hadn't viciously attacked Israel on 10/07, none of this would be going on.

If HAMAs were to agree to stop the attacks against Israel, release the remaining hostages, dead and alive, then the attacks against Gaza would cease, same goes for Hizbollah, if the attacks from them against N. Israel were to cease, then Israel would stop the military ops against them.
Look, you and I will never see eye to eye on this issue and while I respect your right to your opinion, I have very strong reasons for my support of Israel and their right to exist peacefully with their neighbors.

Don't ever change, that's what makes you you in a good way, stick to your beliefs.

Starting Thursday, I won't be around much, my trucks are ready and I will be hittin' the road again.

[yagotme]

230. Just be careful, that's how Willie Nelson got hurt,,,

He was playing "On the road again..."

[AloeVera]

231. Hitting the road again?

Now THAT was a respectful response. Thank you for your kind words too and for your previous response with your personal connection. I understand. I'm also very sorry for your loss.

The thing is, I do understand both sides. I just fervently believe one side is now on a very immoral, destructive and even self-destructive path. It's not right. But that doesn't mean I don't understand their fears and sorrow as well or agree that this is the way to work through it.

I am having a nice break. Kids and grand-nephew gone for a few days. I need to get off DU for awhile and recharge.

Wishing you and yours a great year. Enjoy your time on the road!

Here are a couple of songs to keep you company!

?si=jOy93w2bZHPEnrtq

?si=9wWLWkRtHpvnaE_W

[Mossfern]

160. Are you for real?

Apparently you haven't done a search on the evidence. Hell, even the perpetrators of the atrocities of October7th had go pro cameras to film themselves.

I'm not going to do the research for you - there's plenty out there.
Don't be like the 3 monkeys - or for that matter, an ostrich.

[Avalon Sparks]

167. Plenty of information from reputable Human Rights organizations

Of all the details of Israel’s crimes against humanity.

Reality check: It has never been about "destroying Hamas". That's absurd. IDF officers are very smart people. They know better than anyone that military force cannot destroy a social and political movement deeply embedded in Gazan society. That's just the cover story they put out to those gullible enough to believe it. And there are many. No, the real, underlying story is simply genocide: to destroy Gaza itself, its institutions, its medical care system, its schools, its economy, its religious and cultural sites, its infrastructure, and of course its people.



That's why you deliberately kill writers, professors, doctors, aid workers, ambulance drivers, journalists, photographers, to crush the spirit of resistance in its people. It's to randomly kill enough Gazans to terrify and demoralize the rest , and herd the survivors into a much smaller space to control them better. That's ethnic cleansing with genocidal intent. 



When you murder entire extended families sleeping in their beds; when you destroy bakeries providing precious bread to starving people(lots of Hamas hiding in those bakeries!); when you repeatedly bomb UN schools where people are sheltering from your bombs; when you attack hospitals and destroy the medical care system; when you bomb helpless fleeing people on the very road you told them to use to evacuate; when you cut off basic necessities of life (food, water, fuel, power) to an entire population; you have only one purpose, and it’s not to “target” Hamas. It’s to terrorize, demoralize and punish the entire population of Gaza. That is genocide.



This is not the "Israel-Hamas war", it's a war upon the entire people of Gaza. A rogue State that believes it is above the law is bombing and killing tens of thousands of women and children, who are helpless and trapped, with nowhere to run to. War crimes. Crimes against humanity. Starvation as a weapon of war.

It’s a land grab by genocide.

[Mossfern]

169. I'm talking about the atrocities of 10/7

which you implied were made up.

Please answer my post instead of putting forth yet another screed.

The bombing would stop if the hostages are returned (dead and alive) and Hamas
stops sending rockets into Israel meant to kill innocent Israelis....or do you believe there is no such
thing as an innocent Israeli?

[Avalon Sparks]

171. Here's your answer

Oct 7th was an elite military raid with clearly defined objectives meant to take hostages to use to negociate the release of some of the thousands of Palestinian hostages Israel has imprisoned for years held without due process, many whom are children. Evidence keeps piling up that most civilians were killed either by the Israeli military themselves (https://www.uncaptured.media/p/israeli-volunteer-apache-helicopter) or caught in crossfire. Were there some atrocities committed? Likely but they were also from Gazan civilians and lesser Palestinian militant groups running across the wall, and it's utterly unreasonable to expect absolute perfection during a raid like this, especially considering many Israelis near the Gaza border are reservists and meant to keep the Gazans locked up in their concentration camp. Speed was of the essence in this hostage taking operation so there isn't time to stop and commit pointless rapes or babies in ovens from highly trained Hamas forces.

There are literally thousands of videos online in full graphic details of atrocities Israel has committed against Palestinians since 10/7, meanwhile Isreal's sizzle reel of what Hamas supposedly did took months to cook up and was only available at Hollywood premieres and DC screenings with no recording allowed.

[Mossfern]

177. Uncaptured media

Owned by Dan Cohen.

Dan Cohen is an American journalist and filmmaker based in Washington, D.C. Formerly of RT America, Cohen has contributed to Al Jazeera English, Alternet, Electronic Intifada, The Grayzone, Middle East Eye, Mondoweiss, The Nation, and Vice News and MintPress News. Cohen is from Phoenix, Arizona[2] and has one child.[3]

RT America:

RT America was a U.S.-based news channel headquartered in Washington, D.C. Owned by TV Novosti and operated by production company T&R Productions,[1] it was a part of the RT network, a global multilingual television news network based in Moscow and funded by the Russian government.

-Wikipedia

The Grayzone:

The Grayzone is an American news website and blog[6] described as fringe[12] and far-left by numerous sources.[23] It was founded and edited by American journalist Max Blumenthal.[3] The website was initially founded as The Grayzone Project[24] and was affiliated with AlterNet until early 2018.[9]

Coverage of The Grayzone has focused on its misleading[25][26][27] reporting, its criticism of American foreign policy,[1][9] and its sympathetic coverage of the Russian, Chinese and former Syrian governments.[The Grayzone has been accused of downplaying and defending the persecution of Uyghurs in China, of publishing conspiracy theories about Xinjiang, Syria and other regions, and of publishing pro-Russian propaganda and disinformation, especially during the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

- Wikipedia

Alternet:

Is AlterNet a credible source?
There is consensus that AlterNet is generally unreliable. Editors consider AlterNet a partisan source, and its statements should be attributed. AlterNet's syndicated content should be evaluated by the reliability of its original publisher, and the citation should preferably point to the original publisher.

Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources
Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Perennial_sources

Electronic Intifada:

These media sources are moderately to strongly biased toward liberal causes through story selection and/or political affiliation. They may utilize strong loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by using appeal to emotion or stereotypes), publish misleading reports and omit reporting of information that may damage liberal causes. Some sources in this category may be untrustworthy. See all Left Bias sources.

Overall, we rate Electronic Intifada Left biased based on political editorial perspectives that favor a socialist perspective and strong pro-Palestinian and anti-Israeli bias. We also rate them Mixed for factual reporting due to a lack of transparency regarding funding, one-sided reporting, and a false claim.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/electronic-intifada/

Middle East Eye:

Editorially, they often oppose Middle Eastern governments but often support Muslim organizations such as the Muslim Brotherhood: Egyptian court sentences top Muslim Brotherhood leaders to life and this The Muslim Brotherhood and Washington’s misguided Middle East policy. When reporting on the USA, they often hold negative views of the conservative right and, particularly former President Donald Trump such as this US: New exhibition depicts ‘war on terror’ from Muslim eyes. They also tend to report favorably on President Biden’s positions with Saudi Arabia The ‘Biden doctrine’: How not talking to MBS could impact Saudi-US relations. In general, they report news factually, with support for the Muslim Brotherhood; however, they often support left-leaning Democratic governments politically.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/middle-east-eye/

Need I say more?

[AloeVera]

59. You hit the nail on the head.

And as you likely know, that is the whole problem. It's been made VERY clear that one Palestinian is worth a tiny fraction of one Israeli. In fact, to prevent any FUTURE risk to an Israeli it is reasonable to kill any number of Palestinians TODAY - that's the argument I've seen, boiled down to its ugly essence.

To add insult to injury, just raising a MORAL objection to such a worldview will bring down the wrath of the anti-semite hunters who see no moral issue at all. Except with those raising the objections.

It's crazy-making.

[Avalon Sparks]

90. Excellent points AloeVera

And it’s so very crazy making!

[Beastly Boy]

108. That's a gross overestimation.

As several Hamas leaders repeated their position on record, a Gazan life is only worth to them inasmuch as the capacity of a Gazan to be "martyred" for their murderous cause.

It's about time for someone who professes high regard for morality to bring it up. Would you do the honor, or should I stop holding my breath?

[malaise]

100. The sad and harsh truth

Rec

[Beastly Boy]

101. That's the problem. You don't care enough to ask yourself what the reason for such discrepancy is.

Why do you suppose tens of thousands of Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthi and Iranian missiles fired directly and indiscriminately into Israel's population centers yielded so comparatively few casualties?

Hint: compare the effort that Israel puts into protecting their civilians to that of the Hamas government in Gaza deliberately exposing theirs to enemy fire.

Unless one keeps their blinders on, this doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out.

[akbacchus_BC]

112. Bingo. Cruelty is what netenyahu has unleashed on the Palestinians. That was his goal all along and

the US aided and supported him in building settlements in Gaza. Just the other day, he said Israel will continue to build settlements in Gaza. What Hamas did on October 7 was wrong, but it gave Israel an excuse to execute Palestinians. A Minister in the Israeli government referred to Palestinians as dogs, does that mean that humans should be murdered? The atrocities going on in Syria, Ukraine, Haiti, Sudan makes me wonder what is the purpose of NATO and the UN is all about.

[Beastly Boy]

126. If cruelty was his goal all along,

why did he have to invade Gaza now? Why not 15 years ago?

He has two million of his own Palestinians to be cruel to.

[womanofthehills]

55. Everything you say is what Israel is doing to their prisoners

We even have video of Israel soldiers raping prisoners.

Many hostages who were released by Hamas said they were not abused.

Projection!!!

[Beastly Boy]

109. Who has the video? How many hostages are "many"?

Who screams "Projection!!!" the loudest?

[MarineCombatEngineer]

118. And guess what?

Last edited Fri Dec 27, 2024, 12:36 PM - Edit history (1)

Those soldiers are being tried for sexual assault.

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/08/09/world/video/israel-sde-teiman-alleged-prisoner-abuse-footage-diamond-tsr-digvid

Now, will HAMAs investigate and hold accountable those responsible for the rape, torture, murder, kidnapping of Israeli and foreign citizens on 10/7?

How come you don't ask that question?

[AloeVera]

172. Ha. Only because there is video.

And because civilian medical staff witnessed the aftermath and the incident leaked.

Four of the 9 accused were released without charges. The other 5 suffered the "indignity" of house detention while awaiting the results of an IDF "investigation". That is the last I heard. It was back in August. I suspect it will be handled in the usual manner and we will never hear about it again. Though the accused might pop up on Israeli TV again, hailed as heroes - again.

If you know anything about the investigation or trial, please be sure to let us know.

There are at least 36 deaths of prisoners at this torture camp being "investigated". I wager nothing further will be heard about them as well. Though I hope the death of that doctor who was thrown out into the prison courtyard naked from the waist down either dead or dying from unspeakable torture is one of the 36 being investigated.

But I don't know of any other investigations of the thousands of abuses where prisoners were not killed but "merely" raped, sexually tortured, had teeth and ribs broken, were electrocuted, shackled to the point of requiring amputations, denied medical care, sexually or otherwise assaulted by dogs etc.

About a third of detainees from Gaza have been released without charges. So innocents, not Hamas - but still subjected to torture before their release. Some came back having lost their minds. Once vibrant, promising young people Any investigation of that?

According to an IDF reservist who worked there, they were told to remember the prisoners were "not people" if they ever felt empathy towards them or remorse.

Does all that not give you pause that there is something very wrong here? Finger-pointing at Hamas indicates that is not the case.

Btw Hamas are mostly dead, scattered, depleted and kinda busy running for their lives. Even if they were so inclined, I doubt investigations are a possibility now or ever were during the slaughter. Why continue to finger-point asking for the impossible, while giving Israel a pass on its own many atrocities including the systematic torture of prisoners?

[MarineCombatEngineer]

174. Ha!!!

Ya know I love ya AloeVera, ya know I do, but, that being said, I have my beliefs, you have your beliefs and I really, really do think that we should leave it at that, besides, other than this issue, I'll bet a years of my pension that we are in tune with pretty much every other issue.

I truly hope that the New Year brings you and your family good tidings.

[AloeVera]

184. Some divides are chasms too wide and deep to bridge, MCE

Ours is a great divide.

Yet I wish you and yours good tidings as well.

You are an enigma. I do love a challenge though, so I'm not giving up yet!

[MarineCombatEngineer]

189. I do love a good challenge.

Just for some background on why my beliefs are so strong about Israel, while training Israel's version of combat engineers, I met my late wife, an IDF soldier, we hit it off instantly and the rest is history.
I've been to Israel numerous times and I've seen first hand what the terrorists are capable of, I cannot blame Israel trying to protect themselves from the horrors inflicted upon their citizens.

Yes, Nuttyahoo is a POS, but I do understand the fury in the Israeli population, if we were attacked from, oh say, Mexico like what happened to Israel on 10/07, I would expect and demand the same response to insure that it never happened again.

Those are some of my beliefs, for better or worse.

[J_William_Ryan]

33. "Who is going to stop Bibi and the complicit West?"

No one.

Certainly not Trump.

[calguy]

34. This is, unfortunately, the way it is

We lost the election. We have no control over anything for at least the next two years. It's trump's show now, and we can only grimace from the sidelines.

[The Bopper]

38. This kind

Of gaslighting is why we lost the election. I think Bebe should be held responsible BUT…BUT pretending support for Isreal is the same as assisting Bebe. 90% of Americans are sure Hamas attack is responsible for what’s going on now AND BY THE WAY what Hamas wanted to try and stir up hatred for Isreal. The sooner Hamas is dead the better for Palestinians.

[tritsofme]

44. So am I. It's far past time for Hamas to surrender.

[Jit423]

50. You, my friend, are not the only one sick of the IDF shit! Genocide, plainly.

The hostages haven't been even a second thought to Bibi for months. It is now a land grab and killing as many Palestinians and other non-Jewish people in the area...including killing Christians.

[malaise]

58. THIS

Rec

[mr715]

51. Answer:

Israeli people.

[AloeVera]

57. What's the likelihood of that?

You are right of course.

[mr715]

68. As likely as democracy to win at home

So... well... I guess 50/50 if we pretend there is a long game?



MR

[AloeVera]

159. I don't see it.

Over 90% of Israelis agree that the force used in Gaza was just right or not enough.

Most Israelis now also want Palestinians "gone", whether by increased settlements, annexation or forced "emigration" or "transfer", their preferred euphemism for ethnic cleansing. Hell, they even want their OWN Palestinian- Israeli citizens gone!

Since it's a proven fact that what Israel wants, Israel always gets, I wouldn't put any money on a 50/50 bet.

There is a long game. It's been played for over a hundred years. Israel won.

[malaise]

188. And now they have bombed the last hospital

This is evil on steroids
Ethnic cleansing on steroids

[AloeVera]

192. Three babies froze to death in the last few days.

Everything humans need to survive - shelter, food, water, medical aid - Palestinians have been deliberately, maliciously deprived of.

All of it was done through lies and bullshit. Propaganda.

Because the truth - the real end game - could not be told.

But the truth was there for all to see, all along.

EVIL.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2024/12/26/three-babies-freeze-to-death-in-gaza-refugee-camp

[edhopper]

60. Not to defend how out of proportion

The Israeli response has been.
But what did Hamas hope to achieve with their horrific attack on Oct. 7th.

[Beastly Boy]

61. Feeling pretty healthy about the far worse slaughter everywhere else?

No mention of any of it... ever.

[Groundhawg]

86. Bibi isn't at blame. He is responding to the threat to his people.

[Dave Bowman]

88. I watched a great documentary the other evening. It's called "The Bibi Files".

It was very informative. That maniac and his wife are corrupted to the core. And of course all these civilians are being massacred so he can stay in power and avoid prison. Just like trump.

[C0RI0LANUS]

91. Why the 7 Oct 2023 Attack in Southern Israel?

Look at the expressions of the IDF soldiers as they abuse this bare-footed Palestinian man. (Photo: Reuters)

On 2 Jul 2023, the Times of Israel reported that over 1,100 Palestinians were held by Israel incommunicado without trial or hearing, the highest figure since 2003. This was months before 7 Oct 2023. See Times of Israel and Amnesty Int’l reports below. With no way to release their brothers, fathers, sons, nephews, and cousins, the muqawama conducted the 7 Oct 2023 raid which killed 1,200 Israelis and resulted in 250 captives.

Simply put, the sneak attack was to seize Israeli hostages for a prisoner swap.

And several exchanges did take place in Nov 2023, thanks to D/Mossad David Barnea who pushed a reluctant Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu.


D/Mossad David Barnea speaks in the central coastal Israeli city of Herzliya on 10 Sep 2023. (Photo: Gil Cohen-Magen / AFP / Getty Images / File)

But keeping the Gaza conflict going was to Netanyahu’s benefit because this kept delaying his corruption trial, so he stopped trying to free the hostages. Nevertheless the Biden Administration, during the 2024 campaign year, kept trying to achieve a diplomatic victory with a ceasefire and hostage release. Ultimately, USSECSTATE Antony Blinken made a dozen trips to the Middle East in vain as the Democrats lost the White House.

During the Nakba, the International Criminal Court (ICC) at the Hague indicted Benjamin Netanyahu for war crimes and on 21 Nov 2024 his arrest warrant was issued. See link below.

Sources:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/over-1100-palestinians-said-held-by-israel-without-trial-highest-figure-since-2003/

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/11/israel-opt-horrifying-cases-of-torture-and-degrading-treatment-of-palestinian-detainees-amid-spike-in-arbitrary-arrests/

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/22/israel-hamas-deal-which-captives-palestinian-prisoners-could-be-freed

https://www.icc-cpi.int/defendant/netanyahu

[Beastly Boy]

110. Are we justifyig hostage taking now?

Last edited Fri Dec 27, 2024, 10:02 AM - Edit history (1)

not that I am surprised. Just disgusted.

[Blue_Tires]

98. Ask Donnie

He said he could straighten everything out in the Middle East with just a phone call or whatever... That's why the Arab-Americans voted for him, right?

[marble falls]

103. Beyond sick.

[Kid Berwyn]

107. Netanyahu is setting up World War.

In wiping out the people of Palestine, he is creating new enemies who will seek the destruction of Israel.

[Ping Tung]

121. Those that murder civilians are never the "Good Guys".

No matter what they use as an excuse.

[Beastly Boy]

128. What is your opinion about killing illegal combatants who commit a war crime of perfidy?

Because that's who we are talking about here

[Ping Tung]

129. The same as my opinions about "legal" combatants who kill, starve, torture civilians.

What if they gave a war and nobody came? Carl Sandburg

[Beastly Boy]

130. Which is... what, exactly?

[Ping Tung]

132. That they're war criminals.

Not to mention the criminals who send them and order them to commit war crimes.

[Beastly Boy]

135. Ok, I must have misunderstood the purpose of your post.

You responded to the OP with a general statement which may apply to a multitude of events all over the world, not necessarily today, and not necessarily in Gaza, and not necessarily in any specific context. Not necessarily as a response to the OP, which speaks of today and Gaza as time and place, but to use it as an opportunity to express your views.

I am still unclear about the particulars of your choice of venue, but that's cool. It's your opinion.

[Mossfern]

161. OK

Palestinians never murder civilians?
Equal responsibility.

However, it is NOT in Israel's charter to eradicate all Palestinians/Muslims etc.
One cannot say the same for the Hamas charter.

UNRWA schools taught hatred for Israel and Jews - encouraging murder.
Please provide similar indoctrination of Israeli children.

[ThePartyThatListens]

133. The only thing that works in stopping a bully OP is

Doing the same thing to them.

Unfortunately.

[amuse bouche]

136. How about the Arab countries, get off their asses, and make some demands of Bibi, and rescue fellow Arabs?

There sure are a lot of excuses as to why they have mostly provided lip service.

[Dave Bowman]

138. I believe that you have a good point. nt

[ZRB]

141. You see there's a really good reason for that...

This is one of my favorite convoluted reasonings from the pro-Hamas crowd. Apparently other countries can't help with Palestinian refugees, you know the poor, poor victims of "Israel's slaughter," because taking them in and saving their lives would somehow be "encouraging genocide." So better to let them die than "help Israel." It makes a lot of sense you just have to think really, really hard while humming Kumbaya.

[iemanja]

146. Who is the pro-Hamas crowd?

Or is that your excuse for discounting those who have the nerve to care about slaughtered Palestinians, Lebanese, Syrians, Yemenis, and whoever Israel decides to bomb next?

The point about the Arab countries is a good one, but if they did more you works accuse them of being “the pro-Hamas crowd.” Your only objection is to anyone who believes Israel doesn’t have a right to commit mass murder at will and to those who believe our tax dollars shouldn’t finance it.

[ZRB]

150. I don't know what else to call people parroting Hamas propaganda

And obviously I won't be calling anyone out by name! I know the rules.

Question, how is the Hamas-provided tally of 40ish thousand "mass murder?" Unless all wars are mass murder? Then there's no point in having different words for things.

Assuming half of that number are Hamas combatants and the rest are civilian casualties, after 14 months of fighting, this just looks like an urban war with a relatively low body-count compared to previous urban wars. Hamas should surrender and return the hostages. The moment they do that and the bombs keep dropping, I'll join you in the "mass murder" camp.

[iemanja]

154. Systematically bombing hospitals is mass murder

Your assumption that half of all the dead are Hamas is patently false, a blatant lie perpetrated by Netanyahu. The dead include small children, deliberately targeted by the IDF. (See the Sunday Morning segment titled The Children of Gaza).

There is no rule or alert category banning linking to posts that reveal your allegations. I’ve done it myself.

Bibi doesn’t give a shit about the hostages. He’s refused deals that would have returned them. He backed out on such a deal of his own making, inserting as a new demand Israeli control over the Philadelphi corridor, something his own defense advisors said wasn’t necessarily. He’s been open that the war is more important to him than retrieving the hostages alive.

[ZRB]

178. What systematic bombing of hospitals?

Look I'm no fan of Netanyahu, but this war would be happening with any party in charge. The left would be running it better, but there would still be tragic casualties. That's what happens in wars. Gaza's government shouldn't have started one, and their people should demand an end to it from that government.

I've seen no evidence of systematic bombing of hospitals, just systematic posting of Hamas propaganda that is usually rapidly debunked. I have seen plenty of posts showing Hamas stockpiles of weapons in hospitals, however, so as far as I'm concerned they are legitimate targets.

[amuse bouche]

191. There are 22 Arab countries

Past trime for them to get off their asses, and help these people

I am fed up with so many blaming Biden

[Lemons UK]

149. Everywhere I look...I see HAMAS!

[58Sunliner]

151. I hate it too, but it isn't just Bibi and the west.

[nycbos]

152. Hamas can stop it's terrorist activities.

Same for the Houthis, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad. Also Iran can stop funding these groups.

[WarGamer]

158. No one in power cares...

The gears grind on... the war monger flying monkeys are quite happy lately... TWO proxy wars.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

164. And I'm sick of the anti Israel propaganda posted here.

It's prevalent and I'm sick of it.
So, there.

[Dave Bowman]

182. "anti Israel propaganda posted here"

What is your definition of "anti-Israel propaganda"? Care to share a link to those horrible posts that the admins, MIRT, etc gave a pass to?

[malaise]

216. Genocide and war crimes

No propaganda there

Just facts

[MarineCombatEngineer]

217. Sorry, not buying what you're trying to sell here. nt

[LiberaBlueDem]

175. Am I lost?

Here I thought DU was all about anti-war.
Find out there are some real warmongers here

[Dave Bowman]

186. Yes, unfortunately I noticed that also. That's a damn shame.

[Mosby]

200. Democrats aren't pacifists.

No idea why you think they are.

This isn't Amish Underground.

[Martin Eden]

195. The continued slaughter is no longer self defense within the confines of this current war

Bombs cannot destroy an idea, but they can cause severe trauma among the survivors and inspire insatiable thirst for revenge. Seeds for the next generation of terrorists are being planted in every crater.

Netanyahu and his hardliners are using this war as an opportunity to decrease the Palestinian population within the expanded borders of Greater Israel, which is the long term goal. They have flatly rejected a Two State solution, and they certainly don't want a sizeable and possibly growing Palestinian demographic within the Jewish state. Hamas and its predecessors don't want to share the land either, and would destroy the Jewish state (along with its citizens) if it could.

This is not a conflict for a year, or a decade, or even a century. Jews have been persecuted wherever they scattered in the Diaspora, even in the USA. In Europe, the Holocaust convinced them they would never be secure as guests or citizens in a foreign land. After that horrific genocide they were given a home in their ancestral lands, and they are determined to keep it. Arabs living there are displaced and denied sovereignty.

Identifying who cast the first stone, and placing blame, is a useless exercise. This is an existential struggle in a violent world. Might may not make right, but it can determine who survives. I do not for one moment intend to justify anything either side does. I'm describing things as I see them, though my knowledge is incomplete and my perception imperfect.

What should US policy be in this matter? Look after our own interests first, which includes promoting peace and human rights for all people when such goals can be achieved with wisdom to avoid unintended consequences -- lofty concepts, extremely difficult to apply in complicated volatile situations.

Personally, I think the Holy Land around Jerusalem should be an international city of peace and brotherhood promoted by the three branches of the Sons of Abraham if they truly do love the One God they all claim to worship.

Rodney King asked "Why can't we all just get along?"

[Mosby]

196. Israel should continue to degrade Hamas

Until they release all the hostages.

What do you think 10/7 did to the families of the hostages?

The "Seeds for the next generation...are being planted" with every dead hostage, every suicide bomber, every stabbing victim, every ramming attack, every missle, every antisemitic UN resolution.

The Palestinians have rejected every offer for a country of their own, starting in 1937, they CHOSE violence instead, and their society continues to devolve. They don't want a country, they want to destroy Israel.

There is a civil war raging in the "West bank" right now, between Hamas and Fatah. They can't even get along amongst themselves. This is a hard right terrorist government, who like Putin Xe and others will will never have elections again and who's sole purpose is to eliminate the Jewish state.

[Martin Eden]

199. "They don't want a country, they want to destroy Israel."

I think it's very likely the Hamas terrorists believe the latter is necessary to have their own country.

[AloeVera]

203. I think Native Americans might have come to that conclusion too. y

Some of them did. But too late and too little. History shows us that better-armed, more powerful colonizers always win. Until they don't. Like India. But alas Gaza doesn't have a Gandhi...

Of course Gaza too tried peaceful resistance. The Great March of Return. Close to 10,000 injured and dead is all they got from that.

Very good point, Martin Eden.

[Martin Eden]

206. Native Americans, in their desperation and grief, turned to the Ghost Dance.

It was not an assault on the White man but was disobedient, seen as a threat, and brutally surpressed.

Since European colonists set foot on North America, how much land taken, lives lost, culture destroyed?

Numbers can't tell the story.

[AloeVera]

211. Sometimes words can't either.

How they must have felt...

The Ghost Dance. Their last attempt to regain what was stolen. Sad, poignant but hopeful too. But their last hopes were dashed and with it their spirits broken.

History repeats, on varying scales. But the tragedy of the indigenous in the Americas is truly heartbreaking and shameful.

[malaise]

197. A very thoughtful response

Thank you

[Arazi]

201. The US is protecting our interests there.. by supporting Israel

Who are our chief spies in the ME.

We pay big $$ for their intelligence in the region (and frankly they probably earn it). Jordan is a close second (and also gets big $$). Egypt is a grudging “ally” bought for many billions annually but at least they’ll now pretend to help us rather than outright terrorism - pretty sure the US counts that as “protecting our interests” too

[EX500rider]

198. But no issue with the higher death counts in other recent wars?

Ukraine
Russia's invasion of Ukraine was a major contributor to the 2022 conflict-related deaths, with over 81,000+ deaths.

Ethiopia
The Tigray region of Ethiopia accounted for over 100,000 battle-related deaths in 2022.

Post-9/11 wars
The wars in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Syria, and Yemen are estimated to have resulted in 4.5–4.7 million deaths, including 905,000–940,000 direct deaths and 3.6–3.8 million indirect deaths.

Syrian Civil War
An estimated three million people were killed in this war, mostly civilians.

Rwanda
800,000 people died in Rwanda.

BUT GAZA!!!

[AloeVera]

202. Gaza is the worst slaughter of civilians in a "war" by any measure in the last 20 years or more.

Pointing to death counts is meaningless without the other variables like population size, length of conflict, civilian/military ratios etc.

Also, I'm not sure where your figures came from, but just looking at Ukraine, they're questionable. You say 80,000 were killed just in 2022. But both Ukraine and the UN estimate around 12,000 in the first 2 or 2.5 years. The U.S. estimates 57,000 for 2.5 years.

For the sake of argument, let's assume your figure of 80K for one year only is correct. Factoring in population size, it means the casualty figure is 1/10 that of Gaza. Or, Gaza's casualty rate is 10 times that of Ukraine even with your questionable statistics. But in reality much higher.

You also didn't break out military vs civilians. OHCHR estimates civilian deaths number 12,162 for the first 21 months of the war.

Doesn't look too good for Gaza, does it?

As for the post-911 wars, the total population of those countries is close to 400 million. Those wars lasted a decade or more, some of them. Again, Gaza loses out big time.

You raised indirect deaths and I'm glad you did. Generally they are 2-3 times that of direct deaths. Gaza will put that statistic to shame - sadly and tragically. All the elements of mass starvation, disease, epidemics, deaths by elements (3 babies just froze in Gaza, did you know?), lack of water and sanitation - all these have been carefully and shamelessly put in place.

There is no defending this.

[EX500rider]

204. So killing 10 people in a country with 20 people would be worse then killing 3 million in a country with 23 million?

For some reason I see 3 million dead as a far greater tragedy.
But of course you have to use creative math when Israel is involved I guess. lol

Gaza pop: 2.2 million
45,000 dead -17,000 dead Hamas= 28,000 or a little more then 1% (yes I know, you totally trust the Hamas #'s but not the IDF's..lol)

Syria pop. 23 million
est 3 million dead civilians= 13%

But Gaza is worse for....reasons..

[AloeVera]

205. Lol!!

You seriously want to use SYRIA to prove Israel is not so bad?

And where on earth are you getting your numbers from? 3 million killed?? Is that what Nutty is saying now? Trump?

In 10-12 YEARS of conflict, up to 160,000 civilians were killed. Figures from credible sources, not right-wing nuts. Representing about 1.5% of the pre-war population. In 10-12 years, mind you, not ONE as in Gaza



Why are Palestinian deaths and the enormity of their suffering minimized, pooh-pooh-ed, discounted??

Reasons...

No comment about Ukraine?


On edit:
Estimates of civilian deaths in Syria range from 143k to 307k ( with about $164k derived using statistical techniques, lacking documentation)

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-35806229.amp

[EX500rider]

207. Lets use the UN number maybe?

"By 2022, an estimated 306,887 civilians.."
https://www.ohchr.org/en/stories/2023/05/behind-data-recording-civilian-casualties-syria

Of course that is only up to 2022, 2 years ago.

Even so most people would think 300,000+ dead civilians was worse then 17,000, YMMV

[AloeVera]

208. I thought your side didn't trust the UN.

You seem flexible when it suits.

In the last couple of years, the Civil War has subsided as you know. Civilian casualties were less than a thousand in each of those years.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/742468/civilian-deaths-in-syria-monthly/

But enough of this distraction.

I find it infuriating - shocking - that Palestinian civilian lives are considered by some so cheap, so worthless that even in death, their suffering and life is erased. Their very death brushed aside and discounted.

Repeating the absurd claim that "only" 17,000 (surely you meant 28,000) civilians have been killed does exactly that.

Repeating the unverified, unproven, evidence-free, totally made-up claim that the death toll of around 45k includes 17,000 Hamas - tells me that too.

If I were to say to you Hamas killed only 800 people on Oct 7th because the rest were military/police - fact - you would be outraged. But I wouldn't say that. Now if I were to further discount and belittle those lives by falsely inflating the number of military/police, I would be adding insult to injury and you would rightly be livid for my callousness trying to minimize the tragedy of Oct 7th and mitigate Hamas' barbarism. Not to mention the disrespect to the dead victims.

But the IDF can do that to dead Palestinians and that's OK, some don't see anything wrong.

I really hate double standards, especially when it comes to innocents killed. I have this quaint notion that all people are equal.

[EX500rider]

209. "unverified, unproven, evidence-free, totally made-up claim that the death toll of around 45k"

Well that's certainly true, the 45k number is Hamas issued and likely inflated for propaganda purposes, seems to be working though.

[AloeVera]

210. Ah, selective editing.

Like patriotism, the last refuge of....

When you can't debate on substance, you cut and paste selectively. Or inflate numbers by a factor of 10 and and don't even acknowledge or correct your post. Or deliberately misinterpret. Saw this same movie already today.

I prefer to have discussions with serious, truthful, thoughtful people.

Ignored.

Last piece of advice before parting for good: that 45,000 death toll is a VAST undercount. A year ago there were already 10,000 missing - not included in the death toll- and presumed buried under rubble.The missing are no longer counted, not for a year now. Now it's confirmed by IDF soldiers that the IDF shoots everybody in their designated kill zones - kids included - and leaves their corpses for the dogs to eat. Then counts them as terrorists. Perhaps that's not upsetting to you, I don't know. What I do know is that a reckoning is coming. We WILL find out the awful truth of the massacres of civilians and the horric true death toll and no amount of deflection, denial or dishonest statistics or propaganda is going to save Israel from the consequences.

So just a heads up, you might want to polish up on your game of playing with numbers to try to justify genocide.

[malaise]

215. Correct

Rec