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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIf a person cannot read or write cursive, are they "functionally illiterate?"
Last edited Thu Dec 26, 2024, 04:51 PM - Edit history (1)
Over Christmas, I was talking to a friend who works at a major accounting firm. We got to talking about Gen Z workers, at which point my friend recounted a story about a young hire straight out of college who couldn't read or write cursive. Somehow, this wasn't picked up during the recruiting process. Once hired, this young worker couldn't make heads or tails out of some notes from one of the partners. When the partner found out, he directed HR to terminate employment of the kid for being "functionally illiterate." On the one hand, belonging to a generation where everyone in the U.S. learned to read and write cursive, I can see where the partner was coming from. On the other hand, I thought the partner's response was a bit harsh. If he viewed the young worker as essentially having a learning deficit, perhaps the firm could have made some kind of accommodation for him. I don't know. I'm torn on this one. My long term concern would be that young people wouldn't even be able to sign their own name on legal documents and would resort to instead writing a big "X." That doesn't strike me as progress.
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Voltaire2
(14,879 posts)Cursive is an arcane skill. It is nearly useless. It is in buggy whip territory.
mahatmakanejeeves
(61,654 posts)Voltaire2
(14,879 posts)mahatmakanejeeves
(61,654 posts)And good afternoon.
multigraincracker
(34,329 posts)Dysgraphia Spectrum.
FSogol
(46,731 posts)
Rebl2
(14,955 posts)to be that way, but I can still do so when need be and can read cursive it as well.
indigovalley
(203 posts)Teacher here...Written materials encountered in daily life (bills, signs, directions, websites, texts, labels, newspapers, flyers, manuals, books) are not in cursive writing. If you can read those materials then in my professional opinion you are not illiterate. Not being able to read cursive just means you can't read cursive which is a specialized type of hand writing. If companies are frustrated by workers not being able to read cursive there is a simple work around-have materials, instructions or whatever printed in text instead.
SheltieLover
(60,305 posts)Voltaire2
(14,879 posts)The only good, or rather interesting argument I've read for learning cursive is 'hand eye motor coordination training'. But even that is simply a side effect, not the intention or historical purpose of cursive. There are likely more useful ways to get the same training, like for example drawing arts, which also continue to have practical value.
SheltieLover
(60,305 posts)The brain connection is invaluable & sometimes cursive is necessary.
JCMach1
(28,148 posts)How many of your read 19th century manuscripts? Now try 18th,.17th?
Language and literacy has always been in flux.
If you have done textual scholarship, or taken Middle, or Old English you know.
SheltieLover
(60,305 posts)Jmo.
JCMach1
(28,148 posts)What about an abacus?
It's called obsolescence.
SheltieLover
(60,305 posts)Therein lies the difference.
JCMach1
(28,148 posts)All forms of communication in our language we no longer use.
People need to understand a linguistic understanding of language and communication in that it constantly changes and involves.
Sorry, ignore reality if you like. Cursive isn't coming back.
SheltieLover
(60,305 posts)Language evolves, certainly. However, I have no desire to print instructions for some task needing attention because the worker is functionally illiterate.
Good night.
Response to SheltieLover (Reply #87)
Name removed Message auto-removed
JCMach1
(28,148 posts)It's also your job to evolve.
NickB79
(19,668 posts)At one point, Latin was the common form of communication as well. Any decent education would teach it. Today, virtually unused outside of a few specialized fields.
Ms. Toad
(35,623 posts)Should a person be required to be able to drive a manual transmission car in order to be licensed to drive?
This is coming from someone whose 34 year old daughter refuses to drive anything BUT manual transmission. I prefer manual transmission (although my left foot doesn't). But that skill falls into about the same category of knowledge as reading/writing cursive. Essential if your job requires driving manual transmission (such as being a valet for whatever car is dropped off), but not generally essential in this era - even if your job requires driving a company vehicle.
If the job requires reading hand-written notes, it should be part of the application process. Our law firm didn't require reading handwritten notes - but it did require that the administrative staff be able to transcribe dictated long dictated content because two partners "write" all of their content by dictating it. We included a test of essential skills as part of the application process (including transcribing handwritten notes and word-processing skills).
If it wasn't part of the application process (including the advertisement for the job, assertions on the application that the applicant can read/write cursive, and the interview process) then it is the obligation of the company to accommodate the employee. (That could be by teaching the employee to read/write cursive as part of the on-the-job training, or requiring the partners to communicate in a manner other than cursive notes. Most people can read hand printed notes - so even requiring the partners to print the instructions would likely suffice.)
raccoon
(31,517 posts)
krawhitham
(4,907 posts)DeepWinter
(594 posts)She and none of her classmates have ever been taught cursive in public school.
I have her with a private tutor leaarning college level math/science and classic literature because her school is lacking in advaced classes for kids ahead of the curve. She learned cursive there more as a novelty skill, like callegraphy. (Which she has dabbled into as well, lol.)
The classic liberal education of the pre-1990s we learned is for the most part gone.
TexasBushwhacker
(20,737 posts)Once you have the basics, you can put your own spin on it as a form of self expression. I've always wished I took the time to create my own, distinctive autograph, but at 68 it seems pretty pointless. However, as someone who taught teenagers in the 80s, legibility was a big problem for many kids. I can see why they dropped it, but it's a shame if someone can't read it.
Torchlight
(4,252 posts)
William769
(55,883 posts)
FakeNoose
(36,019 posts)Why didn't the parents put more effort and interest into their kids' education?
By the time these kids get to college, it's way too late for remedial work.
Captain Stern
(2,218 posts)Your response was far more eloquent than what my reply was going to be.
I was just going to say "No. Cursive sucks"
ThreeNoSeep
(184 posts)As a math person, I dealt with this silliness when I stopped teaching kids how to use a slide rule. I had no trouble getting over it.
This "debate" seems to revolve more around disillusionment because of obsolescence rather than any actual need for cursive.
Joinfortmill
(16,635 posts)The NIH on cursive.
If your interested in a scientific perspective, this article in the National Institute of Health may be helpful.
'In summary, when preliterate children perceive letters, only free-form printing experience results in the recruitment of the visual areas used in letter-processing, and the motor regions seen in letter production. This finding adds to previous research showing that letter perception is facilitated by handwriting experience, and it further suggests that handwriting experience is important for letter processing in the brain.'
Voltaire2
(14,879 posts)Joinfortmill
(16,635 posts)
padfun
(1,859 posts)I can't read most people's cursive writing. It's that they are just lousy writers when it comes to cursive.
jimfields33
(19,320 posts)Unfortunately, the 90 days to a year probation period allows a company to fire for practically any reason.
getagrip_already
(17,557 posts)If you are an employee at will, meaning you and the company havent entered into a formal employment contract, you can be fired at any time for almost any reason.
The exceptions are where federal or state law grants specific rights to specific claases of people.
Companies can use any reason; insubordination, not getting along with co-workers, or violating company dress codes.
As long as it isnt discrimonatory, buh bye.
And believe me, if a client says to get rid of someone, they wont see them again.
jimfields33
(19,320 posts)Orrex
(64,330 posts)Blues Heron
(6,231 posts)krawhitham
(4,907 posts)Ms. Toad
(35,623 posts)I can read and write cursive. But unless I am very careful and slow, my handwriting is almost indecipherable - even to me - if I don't have independent memory about the subject of the writing.
When I was working as a journalist for local political meetings, I had to write the article immediately after arriving home - since I couldn't read a fair amount of what I wrote because I was writing as quickly as I could in order to capture comments which were close enough to be used as a quotation. If I waited until the next day, somewhere between a third and a half of what I wrote was indecipherable.
And - I don't use the same chicken scratch all the time. I am still using my signature from 1989 for voting because I can't reliably replicate my current signature. Every once in a while they will suggest I just fill out a new signature care (when I forget and use my current signature). I always decline because I would be challenged every time I vote.
claudette
(4,672 posts)Yes. Maybe someone could invent a typewriter or create a computer font that prints in cursive. Calligraphy font isn’t quite the same.
The Madcap
(597 posts)But even I can't read the formal cursive of the 1800's and early 1900's. That writing style is a work of art, but it would be nearly useless in the 21st century. Times change. We have to be flexible enough to survive the changes.
LogDog75
(173 posts)It's a skill set that can be taught in a short time. I grew up learning to write in cursive instead of printing. The problem with cursive writing is that most people, including myself, suck at cursive writing. I've literally taken notes in cursive writing and an hour later I couldn't figure out what I had written.
As for firing the Gen Z, that's poor leadership on the partner's part. Obviously, the new employee had the skills the company wanted so instead of having to go through the process and costs of finding a replacement it would have been easier to show him how to read cursive. Really, reading cursive isn't rocket science or like trying to read Egyptian hieroglyphics.
RockRaven
(16,537 posts)Cursive is no longer a universal method of written communication or record keeping. It is a niche and (approaching) obsolete one. And that isn't a judgement as to its value, just its usage rate.
Once upon a time, knowing shorthand was an essential reading/writing skill in many office environments. But it is no longer so, and nobody in those same offices today would call one functionally illiterate for not knowing it. Cursive is on that trajectory.
SheltieLover
(60,305 posts)It was a niche of workers in the pink ghetto who knew & used it.
Iggo
(48,536 posts) 
hlthe2b
(106,792 posts)I have commented on why my and other hospitals are now requiring candidates/employees (from janitors to specialist physicians) to show that they can read/legibly write and comprehend cursive writing and a threatened EEOC lawsuit was summarily dismissed by those misguided and willfully ignorant potential employees.
Why? Well among several documented life-and-death instances was an emergency resuscitation code where a nurse student intern who could not read cursive ignored a handwritten sign on an oxygen tank that clearly indicated "DO NOT USE! Malfunctioning" and was thus positioned away from others. So, the patient was receiving no supplemental oxygen throughout the effort because this employee could not read the sign and hooked it up without even inquiring what the sign said.
While one might have understanding and compassion for a student or point fingers at those supposedly supervising her, it was the attitude of this and other non-cursive-competent employees that enraged nearly all from the trained healthcare workers in the ER to the HR managers to the corporate drones. Because she decided to defiantly sue the HOSPITAL for "failing to educate her" in this reading/writing requirement she had missed from K-12 and then college-- and then for their subsequent policy to screen, not hire, and to fire those who did not meet that requirement. And that was only ONE such incident (I have heard of others at other hospitals, clinics, HCW training programs, and pharmacies), all of which yes rely heavily on computers, but real life requires the ability to read physician notes scanned in computerized records, pharmacy notes, and yes the handwritten notes of family members about a patient unable to speak for themselves. Veterinarian friends of mine--especially veterinary emergency clinic staff have had similar problems.
Yes, it is functional illiteracy. And a form that can have significant impacts. To all those who don't care about the ability to read historical documents or the letters of their parents and grandparents, fine, but you are going to face some challenges beyond that. And not all employers are willing or even ABLE to allow you to "skate" because someone decided that was not important because 140-misspelled character typed texts were somehow deemed the equivalent of literacy in this age. IT DAMNED WELL IS IMPORTANT. And shame on those educational officials and others who decided it was not. That lack of understanding and forethought is leaving many to flounder.
In answer to the OP's question, YES, I think it is undeniably FUNCTIONAL ILLITERACY.
Sympthsical
(10,404 posts)You mention pharmacy, which is a big one my partner deals with. Medical charts are another one. Right now, a lot of places have tablet-like devices posted around that does a lot of the charting automatically (i.e. it's a series of prompts you more or less just click through and input values). But doctors and nurses keep notes. I have a little leather booklet I used through clinicals to take all kinds of patient notes. Vitals, medications, schedules, etc. And sometimes I had to read others' notes or hand-written charts, some of which are in cursive. And man, when you get into medical shorthand written in cursive, it's a wild time.
The ability or inability to read or write cursive isn't a moral judgement - in fact, I blame the adults in charge of education for failing to prepare students who are going to encounter it in their lives. It's about being able to do one's job well, particularly where safety concerns are at issue.
Not understanding cursive can literally get someone killed in the medical profession.
hlthe2b
(106,792 posts)the impacts could be--even if cursive reading and writing are not a critical necessity in THEIR field or daily life, astounds me. That failure to understand, to imagine the comprehensive scope of the issue, underscores why this country is moving toward a total disregard for learning, education, science, medicine, and democracy IMHO. We don't believe it necessary to learn from the past--whether it be the ability to read our founding documents or to even understand its constructs. Many arrogantly demand that others "shut up" about that which they have no understanding, but only ignorance. I see this on this thread.
I cannot be positive for our future, though I still fight. sigh...
SheltieLover
(60,305 posts) EdmondDantes_
(116 posts)I work in a field adjacent to the medical field and given how bad many people's hand writing is and how important it is to get things correct, why not use a more easily legible format? Just because something has always been done in one way doesn't mean it has to be. Might even be perceived as a failure of imagine to not change with the time. Medical offices still insisting on using faxes.
There's nothing special about reading the Declaration of Independence in cursive as opposed to reading it via Times New Roman text. You might find it prettier, but that's a personal aesthetic value not something inherent. I find physical books better, some people find e-books better, some find audio books better. To paraphrase Proust is Proust even in English.
If you want to talk about learning from the past, the only constant thing in all of history, is change. Those same founding fathers who wrote those documents you venerate were considered uneducated heathens by British aristocracy and many of them owned slaves a practice that is considered barbaric today.
hlthe2b
(106,792 posts)or even TRY to understand, I will waste no more time. But, one day you may find a situation among those I and others have described where this will impact you or someone you love intensely.
It was a mistake to remove cursive from our Federal standards in 2010--a mistake that educators in nearly 24 states have now recognized and corrected or are introducing legislation to do so. Do some reading.
Emrys
(8,061 posts)In a safety-critical environment, why on earth are you placing reliance on scribbled notes in this day and age? If people's health and lives are at risk, what sort of setup relies on such a predictable point of failure?
Communication has at least two parties: the sender and the receiver(s). If communication is indecipherable, it's not good enough to be arguing the toss afterwards - even as far as in law courts - about who's in the wrong. Respond to errors and change ways of working accordingly.
And having witnessed much medical handwriting - often a mystery even to very seasoned pharmacists who have to raise queries - the mind boggles at professional complacency about this issue.
MichMan
(13,562 posts)Emrys
(8,061 posts)That's aside from the wisdom of not removing a faulty life-critical piece of equipment from a ward where a scrawled note attached could easily become detached.
And I seriously doubt that problems reading medical handwriting would be restricted to a new employee.
At the very least, if it's an essential message, WRITE IT IN ALL CAPS. Maybe also underline it and add a few exclamation marks.
Or have the damn defective equipment moved out of harm's way.
SheltieLover
(60,305 posts) 
hunter
(39,061 posts)... was an adequate response to this dangerous situation.
If I left a 480 volt terminal exposed and unattended out where anyone could touch it, writing a note on it that said "Do not touch!" (especially a note in cursive...) doesn't absolve me from any responsibility for whatever happens next.
A malfunctioning oxygen setup isn't something anyone should walk away from. Simply writing a note on it isn't enough.
hlthe2b
(106,792 posts)I get that you have zero clue as to what happens in hospital ERs and similar emergent settings, but Good Gawd. 
There is a reason that after the Federal standards omitted cursive as part of the national curriculum in 2010 that 24 states thus far have reinstated it as state requirements including 14 which have passed or have legislation pending. Maybe you need to do some reading and understand all the myriad reasons this is a needed requirement. I don't care if all you do is computers. That doesn't obviate the need for written communication and reading ability in an emergency--for all the many reasons I have outlined and MORE.
ThreeNoSeep
(184 posts)That's just bad practice.
Whoever put that "clearly indicated" cursive message on the oxygen tank in your example should receive the reprimand. Seriously.
The number of people who read and write cursive is "well below" the majority of the population. One might as well put warning labels in Latin, or print IRS instructions using Roman Numerals and Old English. It's just silly on its face.
Most of us who can still write in cursive write like an epileptic badger gnawing on a jumbo pencil! As a late Boomer/early Gen X, cursive was certainly a skill that brought other less tangible benefits, as does home economics, Latin, calculations with a slide rule, gardening and any number of things. Those other benefits are not the reason the pro-cursive people are upset. They just feel the modern world dismissed something into which they put effort and which only a few learned well. Older people with legible cursive are just upset because no one values the skill that they spent time to learn. Calling the lack of this skill "functional illiteracy" is just another reason for unhappy older adults to complain about young people.
hlthe2b
(106,792 posts)and patients come in all the time with cursive hand-written notes from previous medical treatment/diagnoses or from English-speaking family members speaking for one who is not fluent--or those speaking for non-compos mentis patients. (that means for you that they are not "with it" since like cursive, common medical Latin is undoubtedly not in your "wheelhouse" and is likewise a part of medicine not going away no matter how "outdated" to the lay public... All the more reason you should not be speaking to that which you have zero understanding. Many fields have educational requirements. Why some think they should be exempted from these and whine and moan about it is immaterial. To hire those who cannot fulfill those basic requirements is to put lives at risk and your complaints won't matter. Nor should they.
There is a reason education is necessary to work in the medical and related fields. And that includes basic functional literacy--as 24 states have now come to realize and have either replaced cursive in school curriculums or are in the process of passing legislation to do so. More will follow. I do not make excuses for willful ignorance nor diminish the need for education. Nor should YOU as that is something the RW does-- not those who respect the need for an educated populace to protect our constitution and democracy. The latter likewise means being able to READ those vital original documents--not wait for AI to REINTERPRET them for some authoritarian's very malign objectives.
ThreeNoSeep
(184 posts)There are any number of solutions to handle the situations you mentioned (Optical Character Recognition (OCR), Google Translate, reaching out to a cursive reader on staff, etc.) The occasional need to read cursive certainly does not mean an RN should not have their certification or that a medical technician is functionally illiterate.
By the way, functional illiteracy is a phrase that has specific parameters, and the inability to read/write in an archaic script or spout pedantic Latin words is not one of them, despite your misuse of the term. Knowledge and use of the meanings of words is a better indication of functional literacy.
If you are justified in your contempt for those who do not read nor write cursive then you should try to have the hospital switch all the warning signs to handwritten cursive and Latin. (cough - reductio ad absurdum cough-cough!)
hlthe2b
(106,792 posts)and refuse to read what I and others have actually written and tried to explain to you. That you think that optical resolution systems can be used in an emergency in ERs packed to the hilt and should be the real-time solution--rather than hiring competent staff able to read a handwritten note is obscene and shows an absolute lack of imagination for what life and death intervention actually means. So, don't be surprised if no one attempts to further engage with you on this issue. I certainly won't.
Bye now. And when you see a cursive note that says DANGER! or PELIGRO! or GEFAHR! or ... then just sit down, refuse to move, and complain that it wasn't printed from a computer or refuse to ask someone to translate, because, of course, that is your right to demand all accommodate you.
appmanga
(971 posts)...and while I can agree with you about the need of some workers to have such a skill as reading cursive, the fact is while the charts we once learned from show "standard" cursive, most people have developed a personalized version of writing in that form. My cursive looks nothing like anyone else in my family, and it's the same for them. There have been many times where I've deciphered the cursive of others simply by substituting what makes sense based on the shape of the scratching in front of me.
And, despite your obvious agitation at this, she's has a right to sue and has grounds for what I think is a pretty good case. And the complaint about her not learning something outside the curricula of all her schooling is beyond grumpy; it's weird. Why would someone attach a lot import to something they're not being taught, and doesn't impair their ability to do well at what they are being taught? I don't know if anyone has ever said to a kid cursive is going to be important to their future, and I don't know how we should expect them to conclude that.
And it's not like those who use cursive are compelled to do so, but for some people, that's standing the the world on its head because the old superiors shouldn't have to (yet again) concede another piece of civilization to the inept and ungrateful young.
That takes some hell of an ego, as does calling the inability to correctly interpret any scrawl thrown in front of one's face being "functionally illiterate".
hlthe2b
(106,792 posts)curriculum. In 2010 the Federal educational curriculum guideline removed it as a mandated (or at least recommended) inclusion. Since then states have been returning it to their active curricula since then with 14 mandating and another 10 reintroducing it in some form or passing legislation to mandate it. Other states are expected to follow. It is NOT true it hasn't been taught in 30 years. That is ridiculous, but it was being phased out until states began to realize the implications. Don't believe me. Can you google? Try "The move to return cursive writing education to state educational curricula."
That some want to whine and moan about the need to have a comprehensive and yes, sometimes very specific skills-oriented education to work in many fields that require it is incredibly unrealistic and akin to a childish temper tantrum. But proceed and see where it gets you...
canetoad
(18,263 posts)And if the only disqualifier was being unable to read handwritten notes from one of the partners, the consequences were extremely harsh.
How often do you see or need to read cursive in everyday life? Not very often I bet, a bit like medieval english or gothic black letter it's obsolete.
SheltieLover
(60,305 posts)There was a recent post citing a healthcare worker who was unable to read a cursive note left for the worker which allegedly caused harm to the patient.
Why the hell can't people read cursive? I know schools quit teaching it, but is it really that big of a stretch or maladaptive brains? Guessing the latter.
I highly recommend reading "The Aanxious Generation."
LAS14
(14,789 posts)It should take, maybe 3 lessons in elementary school with a refresher day each year thereafter.
Mike Nelson
(10,374 posts)... I think most people who can't read cursive are adversely affected by people who can't write cursive.
Prairie Gates
(3,571 posts)Nah.
ProfessorGAC
(70,625 posts)In my 6 years of substituting, I have regularly used cursive on the whiteboard.
I've never encountered a student, middle or high school, that can't read it.
I've even had kids say "I can't read that." I reply "Sure you can; what does it say?" The number who can actually read it is 100% so far.
It's not in Japanese or Klingon. It's still in English.
In fact, I've seen junior high kids writing in cursive to show off that they know how. Language arts teachers tell me they have 2 to 5 kids in every class that turn in their work in cursive.
I think we are seeing a diminshment in the use of cursive, but it's not really because people can't. It's more a choice to stay with printed text.
consider_this
(2,835 posts)really, I would think only the letters f, r, s and z, and the caps G and Q look enough dissimilar to block letters to be difficult to distinguish. Seems it would be easy and quick to, at minimum, include reading of cursive instruction - for the mere fact that beyond the many areas/vocations where it is still in use - not knowing it places another block in the way of a person being able to understand many bits of recorded historical communication (including maybe old family letters, etc) that would be of interest.
ProfessorGAC
(70,625 posts)Popped into my head as I was reading your post.
Since fine handwriting can be an artform, maybe art teachers could include in their curriculum. Probably has more value than drawing turkeys at Thanksgiving time.
BTW: I don't have students. I'm just there for the day (or two) to take care of a real teacher's students.
With my background, I have more subject matter expertise than middle or high school teacher. But, I'm not a real teacher.
consider_this
(2,835 posts)in place of the 'hand turkeys'! 
BlueWaveNeverEnd
(10,493 posts)
Eugene
(62,775 posts)And reply #5 suggest I may have forgotten how to write some of it, like capital S.
Mike 03
(17,379 posts)I don't even like the feeling of writing in cursive. I'm much, much more comfortable with a keyboard, or writing in what we used to call "block print."
Mike 03
(17,379 posts)Did the employee know that his/her notes were communications that had to be understandable to other people?
Maybe the boss should have given the employee an assignment to write a memo of some kind, not specifying how it had to be done, and see what was turned in.
Since high school I have typed 99% of everything I've ever written, and use print with unconnected letters for everything else. If I was given a specific assignment at work, I would never dream of turning in something handwritten anyway.
The bottom line: Can a person effectively communicate ideas and relay facts or other information using the letters of the alphabet?
Voltaire2
(14,879 posts)Likely we could have rigged up some optical scanning device and a digitizing process to translate it into standard text.
There are very few real world requirements for cursive skills.
0rganism
(24,762 posts)Otherwise, well, I'm confident said "partner" could be using legible hand-printing.
Cursive writing is highly personalized and non-standard. Expecting an employee to interpret your specific version without making it an issue in the interview/hiring process strikes me as unreasonable.
MichMan
(13,562 posts)That is why nearly every one states "Other duties as assigned"
"I can't believe you are firing me! Show me where in the job requirements where it says that I can't come in drunk, steal office supplies and tell customers to fuck off ?"
0rganism
(24,762 posts)Let's just say I see things differently.
MichMan
(13,562 posts)I mentioned a few, that while absurd, would certainly be grounds for dismissal, even though they were most likely never mentioned in a interview/job description.
It would be practically impossible to describe every possible scenario in a job interview, unless the job was ridiculously simplistic. I personally would not expect a college graduate to have to write in cursive, but they should be able to read it.
Reminds me of the Seinfeld episode when George has sex on his desk with the cleaning lady. When he is fired, he says no one told him when he hired in that such things were not allowed.
0rganism
(24,762 posts)I read and write my version of "cursive" well enough, but I can barely read my 91yo mother's handwriting and I've seen doctors' writing on prescription slips that boggled my imagination -- I have no idea how the pharmacists were able to interpret them. One does not simply "read cursive" -- one deciphers it. Cursive propagated as an efficient writing technique for minimizing the lifting of an inkwell-filled pen off the page, and it has as many styles as it has writers. If the partner considered not reading his cursive as a firing offense, to me it would only seem fair to make reading that script a part of the hiring process.
Clearly you have a different take.
Ms. Toad
(35,623 posts)A better equivalent is driving manual transmission - a skill that is also disappearing.
Most jobs don't require either skill. Some do - e.g. working as a valet would require employees to be able to drive a manual transmission car. If the job requires either (or using shorthand, a slide rule, etc.) it should be part of the application process.
snot
(10,812 posts)I think it's a shame that it's not taught, since for most people, it's faster than printing by hand, and (1) I also think it's pretty well accepted that most peole learn better by taking notes by hand rather than typing them, and (2) one doesn't always have handy a digital device suitable for transcribing lengthy text info.
Xolodno
(6,760 posts)...and at my age, forgot how to write it. Think I still can read it, but never had to, all my work is numbers first then print. I even used to know Russian cursive, I can tell you that this point, I could probably make out some of the letters, the rest, no so much. Cursive was used as a fast way to write before typewriters and now keyboards.
Times change and we have to change with them. The Russian I know is over a century old (when we got exiled by the Tsar). I worked with people who were from Russia and sometimes I would say something and they looked at me funny. That's when I say "I did it again, didn't I". They would respond and say yes and laugh. To them I was basically speaking the king's English. But hey, I learned the modern version. In about a century the language we use now will be considered old. Just the way it is, we just don't evolve, so does culture, language, customs, etc.
Happy Hoosier
(8,559 posts)
allegorical oracle
(3,400 posts)the answer is thumbprints or facial recognition provided by cell phones. Just ask because there's a whole lotta signing going on post hurricanes Helene and Milton and some areas in Fla. (mostly rural) are still signally handicapped, so notarized signatures are handy.
sakabatou
(43,260 posts)My dad has terrible handwriting, so it's hard to parse his notes.
Xoan
(25,456 posts)What's wrong with you ?
bif
(24,262 posts)Block letters? Just doesn't make sense. It's not that frikken hard to learn. It never should have been dropped. I write almost exclusively in cursive.
Emrys
(8,061 posts)this one raises issues about companies' recruitment, interviewing and induction processes, and their own often unspoken internal culture and "we've always done it this way".
In a previous thread a couple of weeks ago, inductees were being blamed for issues that showed up systematic shortcomings in the companies' methods and attitudes to new employees.
I mean, in what sort of company is it acceptable to routinely say things like "We had to let 50% of the new intake go because of ...." before the suspicion arises that the companies are interviewing the wrong people, conducting interviews in non-productive ways, falling short in their induction processes, leading to lost time and money, heartache, frustration and ill feeling all round, and maybe making unrealistic and sometimes unidentified and unspecified demands on recruits?
I edit books for a living. "Cursive" covers a hell of a lot of handwriting styles. I've edited books that had extensive prior annotation in cursive, and one book that was literally a manuscript - all 400 sheets of it written by hand in cursive, which I had to decipher and edit in a way a typist could follow.
One book was a revised edition of a parents' guide to British public schools. Without being familiar with that rarified sector of the elite, we were faced with the problem of whether the scribe's f symbols were in fact p symbols - e.g., was the school called Uffingham or Uppingham? And I was taught cursive with rather extravagant ink pens designed to "improve our handwriting". As most people do, I gradually changed and personalized my own style, often loosely based on the forms I was taught, so there really is no recognized or recognizable standard.
If someone in a firm is routinely producing handwritten material - and you have to ask why they're doing that nowadays when electronic alternatives are readily available - the onus should be on the writer to ensure their handwriting is easy and clear to interpret by others: just as when I used to have to write corrections, changes and instructions for typesetters on hard copy, my publisher employers would not have been happy if I submitted work that was hard to read and decipher. The typesetter wouldn't have been seen as at fault, I would have been. The style I adopted as a result was less than cursive, more like printing, with the letters separated for clarity. I doubt any younger people would have had serious problems reading it.
The Madcap
(597 posts)from our "Supreme" Leader. He sets a shining example of how valuable cursive is now. It looks like he's trying to draw his own EKG printout.
Susan Calvin
(2,153 posts)I am glad I was taught cursive, because I can take notes in cursive faster than I can type. I never went so far as to learn shorthand, though.
Rebl2
(14,955 posts)I would fire them, but would give them 60-90 days to learn to read and write cursive. Then fire them if they didn’t accomplish the task. It’s a failure of the K-12 school district they graduated from IMO. Think of all the situations in life that require signatures. Drivers license, opening a bank account, buying a car or house, and much more.
doc03
(36,964 posts)I write checks and address envelopes in cursive, what next is the USPS going to outlaw it because their workers can't read?
What is so difficult teaching a first grader to write? My mother passed away 14 years ago her handwriting was beautiful
up until she passed away at 92. She had to quit school in the 5th grade to do housework for people to help earn a living
for the family back in the great depression yet she could still write and spell better than I ever could. I think if anyone
is functional illiterate it is our educators.
Emrys
(8,061 posts)I used to have to handwrite to professionally acceptable standards all day every day for work. Now I do it so infrequently that on the rare occasions I use it, my handwriting's appalling.
Mossfern
(3,251 posts)and not hand written. I was appalled- so impersonal.
My daughter (now 44) - when she was in 5th grade often had essay assignments. She would write pages upon pages - and then her teacher made the students copy over their essays. Well, my 'sweet' little girl just refused to do it. I got a call from her teacher who was concerned about my daughter's rebellion. I explained that it was a hardship for my kid because her essays were several pages while the rest of the class only wrote one page essays.
She was the first student in her school who was allowed to type her homework. It was about 1990.
While I am a fervent fan of cursive writing, I can certainly see the drawbacks it may present.
If students aren't taught cursive, they should be taught drawing - development of fine motor coordination is essential.
WarGamer
(15,762 posts)I don't like how the education system has gone down the drain.
When I was in High School... I think there were 7 language choices for the Language elective...
Latin, Russian, French, German, Spanish, Italian, Mandarin...
My son had the choice of Spanish or French.
no_hypocrisy
(49,209 posts)I can write cursive backwards like DaVinci.
ForgedCrank
(2,389 posts)personally consider it an important skill, I see it as strictly cultural in nature. It does not equate to literacy at all. I think it is a great skill to keep alive, but is most certainly considered a legacy skill that is not in any way required in modern American society.
underpants
(187,387 posts)I stopped right in cursive they split second I was told I didn’t have to. I’ve written in block capitals since.
At an accounting firm I worked at, I had a partner come tell me that emails in all caps means I’m angry or yelling. Email was new to me.
Polybius
(18,376 posts)The only time that I ever write in cursive is on a card. People should write in print if they have to make notes for others to read. It's far easier for everyone to understand. I have letters from when I was a teen. Sloppy print I can make out. Sloppy cursive is a hell of a struggle to read.
iemanja
(54,914 posts)It's not their fault. They have no exposure to it. I don't know why schools decided to stop teaching it, but they have.
betsuni
(27,311 posts)care about not being able to read the partner's notes. Who cares, it's not about me! Learning cursive will take years and years of intense study! Wah, I have a disability! Ridiculous.
BlueTsunami2018
(4,075 posts)It’s not a foreign language. The problem is, so many people have such atrocious handwriting that even the most literate people can’t make heads or tails of it.
I never understood this obsession with cursive writing. I never use it except to sign my name. I print everything in block letters. It’s just easier for anyone to read and being a leftie, writing in cursive smears on the page and gets ink on my hand. I always hated being forced to write that way as a kid.
Emile
(30,814 posts)NickB79
(19,668 posts)At one time, Latin was the default language any decent education provided to the children of the wealthy and powerful. Today it's essentially dead.
I learned cursive as a child in the 80's, when it was still an educational requirement. I remember the pre-made sheets of paper with cursive letters you traced. Became very good writing and reading it.
Today? I can only sign my name (barely). I can still read it, but very, very rarely need to. My daughter simply signs her name in block print, like everything else she writes.
Language has always evolved over time. What once took centuries now takes decades. Cursive is an dying art, and it's not coming back.
thucythucy
(8,767 posts)than learning cursive.
The one takes most people years.
The other--if they're already literate--then maybe a week or two, if that.
I don't have a dog in this fight, but equating learning cursive with learning Latin is like equating learning how to add and subtract simple numbers with learning calculus.
Historic NY
(38,054 posts)My handwriting sucks came from years of driving the nuns nuts. However, that said, I had to write a pile of composition books for my masters. I sometimes wonder how they read it all.
I do read lots of ancient government documents, some scribe's had beautiful writing and others not so much.
cadoman
(972 posts)
DBoon
(23,173 posts)Knowing Latin was considered the standard for an educated person just a few generations ago.
Maybe instead of cursive, the boss should have written the note in Latin, then fire the new hire for being unable to understand it.
Unwind Your Mind
(2,165 posts)When I am hiring someone, one of the things I consider to be vital is the ability to write clear legible notes. I would fire the partner 😆
appmanga
(971 posts)Of course that doesn't make someone "functionally illiterate".
I think what happened here is unfair form the standpoint that cursive writing simply isn't taught, and apparently hasn't be taught for more than 30 years. Not being able to read certain handwriting isn't a new or novel issue. It seems to me the partner is an arrogant asshole and this young person probably deserves better for the start of their career.
La Coliniere
(1,071 posts)It was agreed by the 4th grade team I was a member of that we would teach it by using this method. I did this for 20 years and most students were proficient in reading and writing cursive by Thanksgiving. After some initial direct instruction on how the worksheets they would receive every morning should be used, it became automatic how to proceed. In a short time the kids just about taught themselves. We used the time from when the students entered the classroom to when morning announcements were broadcast to achieve this; we’re talking no more than 5-10 minutes 4/5 mornings a week. I believe learning to write and read in cursive is still important. We also embedded periodic writing assignments that had to be in cursive, in order to achieve mastery of the skill. I’ve had students who are now adults thank me for being taught cursive writing. I am still in contact with teachers from the public school I retired from 10 years ago and they are still employing that same method of teaching cursive writing. Good for them I say.
WhiskeyGrinder
(24,104 posts)Orrex
(64,330 posts)
Rob H.
(5,591 posts)and it’s entirely possible that his handwriting is so atrocious that not even someone who can read cursive can decipher it.