Why?

[angrychair]

It's an important question that needs context. This is a question/commentary about religion, specifically Christianity so if that isn't your cup of tea fair warning.
The question occurred to me the other day and brought surprising clarity, even as an atheist.
I'm an unapologetic atheist but I still genuinely want to understand. In that desire to understand I had an epiphany. It's the simplest of questions: "why".
What do I mean? Why would an omnipotent being, literally all powerful, that exists at every moment of time simultaneously, care about us specifically? Seriously, why? It makes no sense.
John 3:16 does not answer that question because that simply engenders the same question: why?
Don't accept Matthew 1:21 either. Because that simply engenders the same question: why? "Because God loves us because he created us"
Because that simply engenders the same question: why? Why would they even create us? To what end?
Think about it with a critical eye. Why would an omnipotent being that literally exist at every moment in time, create flawed beings and then punish us for all eternity, without any opportunity for forgiveness after our mortal death, for our mistakes that they already knew we were going to make in the first place? Why go through that at all? Why be born at all if they already know we will spend all of eternity being tortured and suffering in the end? It's a little demented if you think about it from the outside looking in.
My point is the question is simple and stands up to even the deepest introspection. More than willing to listen to an answer but in fairness I cannot find a response that does generate the same response: Why?

[Susan Calvin]

1. For its own amusement.

That's always been my opinion, assuming the god described in the Bible exists, which of course I don't assume.

[3Hotdogs]

17. For amusement. The same reason I would assemble a Lionel train set.

I am agnostic. So I don't believe in any of it. But that's the only answer I can think of if I think on it.

[anciano]

2. A couple of thoughts....

As an agnostic I can't write off the possibility of an omnipotent eternal essence beyond human comprehension, but that doesn't mean that such an essence would "care about us"' as we understand the concept of caring.
If such an essence truly exists, then I believe that essence has manifested itself to us mortals as the phenomenon we call Nature. But that still doesn't answer your question of why? to what end? And, in the mortal realm of thought and understanding, I'm not sure there is an answer.

[angrychair]

9. While I do not believe in any higher power

The belief you posit is at least more realistic than the mythology and parables we are asked accept.
But as you correctly surmised that doesn't answer the question of "why".

Where we disagree is if there is an answer or not. I believe there is one.

[surfered]

3. I don't know, but George Carlin observed God is supposed to be an omnipotent, all powerful, all knowing being, but..

…not good with money.

[3Hotdogs]

19. Yeah. Fuck all. If Jesus was a smart as we think he is, he would tune into Dave Ramsey every day

at 2:00 and learn how to manage his coins. Then we wouldn't have to give him nothing.

[Think. Again.]

4. Humanity was in it's childhood...

...when our curiousity led us to questions we still didn't have enough information to answer, so we did the best we could and speculated on 'what the hell is all this'?

Some would say we made up a 'conspiracy theory', but all we could do at the time was to imagine what could explain the unexplainable to us, and so we made up gods.

The fact that we're still not past that, with all of the information and reasoning we've gained since then, tells me that we're still very young, but beginning to mature just a bit.

Hopefully, hopefully , our "wild youth" won't kill us (and everyone else around us) and we will live to a ripe old age. Hopefully.

[Blue Full Moon]

5. Control

At the Cincinnati Art Museum is a stone tablet inlaid gold and written on it, something to the effect, I have this engraved gold tablet that says it's from God and he makes me king. The religion is just pretty much some kings ID or ego still dictating how we are supposed to live.
I like Terry Pratchett's book Small Gods kind of gives the answer. The God is not what the followers think.

[Clouds Passing]

6. According to the Bible, we are not supposed to make an image of God.

So anyone who thinks they know what God is, is sinning. WTH!?

[LogDog75]

7. Good questions

I too am an atheist and I find people's belief in religion to be difficult as to why they believe. I looked-up John 3:16 and Mathew 1:21 and here's what they say.

John 3:16: For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
So what confuses me is if someone who never heard of Jesus will perish and not have eternal life? Seems rather cruel of an omnipotent being (think Q from Star Trek: TNG) to make this judgement so narrow.

Mathew 1:21: She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.
Since Jesus was Jewish that means only those of the Jewish faith would be saved. Again, it seems rather cruel of an omnipotent being to make this judgement so narrow.

When you ask a Christian or someone of another religion to explain they use the vague that "It's God's will" or that God has a plan for us but they never can explain why God doesn't share it with us.

When I want to have fun Christians, especially Evangelicals, I ask them this question: "Can Joseph sue Mary for divorce on the grounds of adultery? After all, Joseph isn't Jesus's biological father." The look on their faces is priceless.

[3Hotdogs]

20. If God was that smart that he wanted the choir of angels and harps, why not just make a choir of angels and harps. That,

instead of all the stuff of making us dolts prove ourselves.

[Intractable]

8. Either you believe in God, or you believe ...

the Universe was created from the spontaneous explosion of an unstable singularity, seeded by previous Universes in some grand recursion, ad infinitum, with dark matter we cannot see, and dark energy we can't define, with additional dimensions we cannot experience.

I'm going to go with the latter.

[LogDog75]

12. I agree with you

I have a pet theory about how the universe and everything (including life) came to be. Basically, it's "From Chaos comes Order." It's my personal theory and explanation but I think most people can understand it. It goes this way:

Imagine a glass in front of you. You see nothing is in it but how can you prove there is nothing? To do so, you have to have a frame of reference which is what that glass provides. The glass provides the boundaries from which we observe if there is anything or nothing in the glass.

Using the above analogy, apply it to the universe. How do we know the universe exists? Because we have to have a frame of reference to compare it to so if there is no universe there is nothing to compare it to. Therefore, the fact we can see the universe (at least a portion of it) proves the universe exists.

Now comes the Chaos Theory about how the Earth, planets, stars, people, and everything else came about. Imagine a cylinder 10-feet high and 10-feet wide sitting on a base that will agitate causing the contents to swirl. Inside this cylinder you fill it with two-feet of dirt, two-feet of water, two-feet of pebbles, two-feet of oil, and two-feet of fist-sized rocks. You seal the cylinder and turn-on the agitator and leave it running until all the contents are equally disbursed. This is the Chaos. Once this is done, you turn the agitator off. What happens next?

The contents will continue to swirl until their momentum ceases. The contents will then redistribute themselves (Order) with the fist-sized rocks at the bottom, followed by the pebbles, followed by the dirt, followed by the water, and at the top is oil. The universe naturally provided it's order.

From the singularity, the elements of the universe were formed and distributed to form stars, planets, galaxies, etc.. Life evolved the same way from chaotic elements that ordered themselves into life forms.

Sorry for the long explanation, but I hope it helps to answer the question believers in God ask how they universe came about.

[Intractable]

15. From your analogy, the question is where did the two-feet of dirt come from?

>> "From Chaos comes Order." It's my personal theory

Are you sure it's yours alone?

It's the opposite principle of Entropy. It takes energy to make and preserve order. Then, naturally, the system loses both.

Your explanation won't be convincing to anyone who is a believer in God. Neither will mine.

[JoseBalow]

43. Divinity

[Marthe48]

10. I have faith not religion

I've written about this before on DU. The older I get, the more simplified my understanding becomes. I read parts, but not all of the Bible and did some bible study with different Christian sects. I get from the Bible ideas on how early humans discovered ways to live together in the period of time they lived in. Morals, ethics, maybe even empirical observations on being healthy, such as the food prohibitions in Leviticus.

I read sources of early history as well as most of the Gospels and made some gigantic assumptions. Jesus preached love because it was a sensation humans were finally noticing, but not yet understanding. Jesus helped humans get to the next level and at least some of us embraced what he was telling us. Early Romans allowed a day of mourning for each year of a child's age, but if I remember correctly, a maximum of 3 days. Can you imagine turning off how you feel about a loss of a child in 3 days? But, mortality rate was high and the parents had to get past the loss of children or be in constant mourning. But Jesus was giving the feeling of love a name, and letting us know that it was important we recognize and cultivate that feeling above all other sensibilities. It isn't duty, lust, wealth or accomplishment, just love.

I realized in the last few years that praying isn't just a way of communicating with God. It is a way of keeping me mindful of who and what I care about. I wish my prayers would come true, but they don't. But I can make sure that I remember friends who are ill, or immigrants in harms' way, or families I know and try daily to make the day better for someone who needs a lift.

Some of the religious people I know say the God created us to worship him. I might not be a religious person, but I like the saying that God is in the details. If I am ouside and able to enjoy the natural world, I am usually dazzled by something small or large that I know I wouldn't have thought of had I created the wonders we all live with. If that is worship, I enjoy the awaremess.

I think when we die, we are transformed and we can leave, with no regrets, this human body and the constraints it imposes, mentally, physically and emotionally. My husband and I agreed to meet by the moon, but maybe when I leave this mortal coil, what I had here, what I lost here, might no longer be important. I can't imagine not finding him again and it makes me sad that death could be so immense that we are truly parted. We'll see.

[elocs]

28. I think when we die we are dead. No complex or convoluted explanations needed.

As a believer I read the Bible 3 times and studied it in its original languages in order to bolster and defend my faith and came out the other side a nonbeliever. I learned more and more about less and less until I finally knew everything about nothing, but still too much to claim to be an agnostic.

[bluescribbler]

11. I have the answer.

Maybe, maybe not.

[GiqueCee]

13. Matter and energy is, was, and always will be...

... if there ever was an omnipotent Sky Daddy, the Big Bang was probably an idle garage experiment that blew up in his face. That's why the Old Testament God was such vindictive prick. Megalomaniacs hate being wrong.

[JoseBalow]

14. "Why?"

[Intractable]

16. Now, that's what I call "putting things into perspective."

Don't masturbate.

[orleans]

22. wonderful pics... and then came that last one and i lol'd! nt

[True Dough]

32. In fairness,

it would probably have been awkward for Jesus to masturbate with those holes in his hands, so we are simply asked to refrain out of respect to him.

[Martin Eden]

18. That question was answered at the end of "Venus on the Half Shell" by Kilgore Trout

(actually Phillip Jose Farmer)

The hero of the story travels the universe seeking the answer to his existential question: Why were we created only to suffer and die?

He finally gains an audience with the oldest and wisest creature (a giant cockroach) which had firsthand knowledge. Its answer was the last two words in the book:

Why not?

[Maeve]

21. Art

If God is a creative force, there must be a creation, by the very nature of that force. When I write, my characters take on their own personalities and I have to interact with them to make the story come out (and it doesn't always go as planned).

That is one artist's answer. Ask another day and it might be different

[RainCaster]

23. Love

Simple question suggests a simple answer.

There is a simplified version of the Bible known as "The Story". It tells the overall story of the Bible from Genesis to Revelations in 31 simple chapters. It is worth your time to explore this edition because it is so simplified. Leaves out all the inconsequential topics and stays focused on that upper story- love.

[angrychair]

33. Good perspective

But that doesn't answer the question "why?". Why does God love us? Why do they exist at all? Plus there is absolutely no evidence that (at least none in the last 2000 years or so), if they do exist, they think about us at all.

[Roy Rolling]

24. Why?

Why can we not measure weight with a sound meter? Why can we not see music? Why can our eyes not envision something of a vibration invisible within the visible light spectrum.

Spiritual energy (by definition) is supernatural and beyond measurement by ordinary, material, or natural methods.

That is the logical answer, an answer that works for both atheists and theists. All that’s needed is a faith in logic.

[angrychair]

34. Nice perspective

But doesn't actually answer the question "why".
Even if supernatural it doesn't answer the question if they actually exist and if they care about us at all.
The question is not "what are they" the question is "why are they". Why would an omnipotent being care about creatures that should likely not even register their existence to such a being.
We humans love to throw around terms like "omnipotent" and try to define it but it's true meaning is far beyond our understanding. If such a being were to exist we would be like a neanderthal trying to understand how a quantum computer works.

[Americanme]

25. I am an atheist too

I was raised to be a believer, but it never made sense to me. What did this creator do with his time before he created us? Are we the product of boredom? I think men created the creator, to answer any questions they had no answers for. What I really don't understand is American Christianity. Do they realize they are worshipping a watered down version of a middle eastern religion? A god named YHWH? Disciples named Kephas, Tau'ma, Bar-talmai, and Yehuda? No, I think every character in the bible must have been white, had American names, and wore the good old red, white, and blue. And you know they supported the 2nd amendment, that "thou shalt not kill" stuff, that's meant for those other folks. As the religion spread, it had to be changed over and over again, to be palatable to the masses. All the years I went to church, the lessons were the same, over and over. Not until I quit going to church and read the entire bible at home did I learn some weird stuff was in there. Imagine what was removed over the centuries.

[elocs]

29. Don't overthink it because that's a fool's errand. n/t

[Talitha]

31. "I think men created the creator, to answer any questions they had no answers for."

That just about says it all.

[rickford66]

26. Why didn't Jesus at least educate the people about germs or even the concept of zero ?

What he did teach is mostly ignored or distorted by religion today.

[ancianita]

27. It's a rigged question to claim to be an "unapologetic atheist" and still expect a 'theological' answer to "Why?"

-- rigged because it's a question that in itself presupposes the existence of a God, even for the sake of argument.

I could argue that General Discussion isn't the proper context for questions that whole books are written about; I also could give you the benefit of the doubt after you answer this: why do humans have free will?

Well educated, well read, well traveled, I was a Four Horseman Atheist for at least two decades.




Then my heart opened up. I read and studied more because I believe in lifelong learning.
If you're serious about "Why?" then you'll make the effort to dig into 20 centuries of explanation.
Here's a good start




In it are enough centuries of documentation, timelines that prove Christianity is the only fact-based religion of any other belief system. In this book are more than enough answers to your "why?" to give God the benefit of human doubt.

Once you've read this book, you might start questioning your doubts, even.

If you're fair you might ask yourself "Is it reasonable to doubt that Christianity is true in light of all the evidence?" You might come to think probably not. You might come to think that in light of the evidence, you have more doubts about atheism and every other non-Christian belief system. Given the evidence, they are not reasonable. Christianity is. You might seriously reconsider humanity's 4,000 years long spiritual/social ordering process from just "gods consciousness" to God revealing Its/His existence as the God who made trillions of universes macro to micro; the God who established the stardust on this planet as made in His image, though containing all the stuff of those universes, the God who directly delivered commandments, which then became laws, courts, judges, direct eyewitness testimony, juries, etc. to humans, to create order out of human power chaos.


I could argue that for you to expect best and final answers here in a forum context is also unreasonable.
Then again, as a former atheist, I could say
a) go outside this forum's comfort zone, maybe open up your heart, because
b) what have you got to lose?

[angrychair]

37. I thank you for the thoughtful

And well reasoned response and I sincerely apologize for any misunderstanding.
To be clear the posed question was mainly for informational purposes to let people explore the question however they want because we are not going to solve it on this forum or any other and absolutely not solving it anytime soon. you also misunderstood my understanding of religion. I am very comfortable discussing Christianity, both from a purely religious perspective and from a historical perspective. Graduated from a Catholic university and studied religion for over 30 years.
Also atheism is not based on faith but facts as we know and understand them.

I would finally add that my atheism is absolute and made from a deeply researched and thoughtful place. The point of my question is not to address any shortcomings in my understanding but to better understand people that do believe in a god and what makes that faith tick.

[ancianita]

45. I see. Understood. Thank you.

Just throwing in a list of converts (and/or those who returned) to the faith, for the broader audience here.

[Buddyzbuddy]

30. I would also ask, what if?

What if it's not true. If a few accepted key concepts and beliefs about religions are not true, then none of it is true. It's like jenga. I was a devout Catholic until I came to a clear understanding that it's all lies built upon lies. I sank into an immediate deep depression upon realizing it. I don't usually talk about it because I wouldn't want to take away somebody else's comfort in faith. That's part of what faith provided to me. Comfort in the knowledge that the passing of my loved ones meant a better life in Heaven. If I lived by the tenets of Catholicism I would see them again. That evil people will be punished, now and in the afterlife. Now, what if it isn't true? Think long and be honest. If you're a faithful person and none of it's true then...? Today, I am an atheist and I feel like a weight has been taken off. I have only one life to live. I live a life based upon moral decisions and provable, historical, scientific knowledge. Religion and faith is a personal decision, just make sure it's your decision. IMHO, Religion is used to rule by fear. Whatever you do, don't question your faith or you'll go to the bad place. But, if you do question it, then use the history and stories we provide to answer those questions. Then give me 5 Hail Mary's, go to confession and don't forget to give us money so we can be the country's biggest land holder.

[angrychair]

38. Thank you

For sharing your journey and perspective. It's important we share and spread understanding and reason. Kindness and love. A love that doesn't come with any judgement or condemnation.
That religion and it's desire to interject itself into our politics and our lives is not acceptable or desirable.

[Buddyzbuddy]

40. Thank you. I agree with you.

[usonian]

35. Why is not the question; it's the answer.

Religionists want you to ask the question, because they have the answer. Kindly genuflect and contribute in order to find out.
Religion is about control. You are stamped and inferior and we (who are superior to you) will explain.
You are unlike spiritual beings and your little universe is apart from the heavenly realm. "You must escape it."


NOT

IMO, The purpose of life in the universe is not to find meaning; it's to create meaning: through observation, combined with cognition, combined with life experiences, combined with beneficial actions equally for one and another. Doing so, even -- and especially -- in times of difficulty is what humans are all about, and any "paradise" without obstacles to overcome, especially when we overcome them together, is foreign to us, and why we leave the womb.

Any similarity to The Hitchhiker's Guide or to machines or simulations "evolving" to understand and create meaning out of stored information (they lack two aspects of the above) are outside this discussion.

The universe was not created at "some time". It is created in this moment with our thoughts and actions. We create the "why" (or trash it)

This is the gist of the opening section of The Lotus Sutra, a profoundly egalitarian, empowering, non-judgmental yet deterministic, and visionary work that turns hierarchical and manipulative systems of thought on their heads to this very day. It's metaphorical, not a walk in the park. I'll find (or write) a guide.

Here is one description of the Lotus Sutra

The Lotus Sutra has the drama of fighting for justice against evil. It has a warmth that comforts the weary. It has a vibrant, pulsing courage that drives away fear. It has a chorus of joy at attaining absolute freedom throughout the three existences of past, present and future. It has the soaring flight of liberty. It has brilliant light, flowers, greenery, music, paintings, vivid stories. It offers unsurpassed lessons on psychology, the workings of the human heart, lessons on life, lessons on happiness and lessons on peace. It maps out the basic rules for good health. It awakens us to the universal truth that a change in our heart, or attitude, can transform everything. It is neither the parched desert of individualism nor the prison of totalitarianism; it has the power to manifest a pure land of compassion, in which people complement and encourage each other.

[Karadeniz]

36. To those of us who have had experience with some level of spiritual dimensions, atheism in today's

misguided religiosity could well be beneficial! Your questions involve just a few of the ways in which
Christianity has evolved to encourage false understandings of its own writings. Early on, the beliefs of the writers were labeled heresy, writings were burned, dissenters were punished. What we're left with is a spiritual culture in which materialism is peachy keen, faith alone (not scriptural) is encouraged and the theology has been mangled in order to accommodate a religion acceptable to Roman culture, a culture which has therefore never really died.

To answer your first question, true Christian theology does not hold that an essence that is loving made this world of illness, crime, disasters, greed, That force never leaves its world, but there are overseers at the other levels of spiritual progression. This is part of the Prodigal Son parable which no Christian can decode. The original Christians called the ruler of the physical plane the Demiurge, Yahweh, even Satan. So, any Christian who accepts the belief you stated about the perfect power being everywhere cannot have read scripture or doesn't understand it or blindly accepts whatever is told.

Your second why is definitely your average Christian's blind spot. Why were we created? What is our purpose? The following is indeed in scriptures, but again ignored because the Church can't decode its own messaging. Humans were created to be a repository for a soul which is produced by the perfect, all loving force which never leaves its own world. The soul initially carries with it the same DNA as its Source. However, it loses its strength as it makes its trek to earth, going from level to level and replenishing the spiritual nature of them. By the time a soul gets to earth, it's pretty well empty.. The "God System" has a mechanism to help everyone out: Karma. The soul agrees to inhabit a body for the purpose of expressing its knowledge of divine nature. In return, the soul will develop its original divinity to the point that it can return to the World of the Source for eternity, basking in the divine radiance. Alpha Omega? We end up where we began.

As Martin Luther noticed, no way could he or anyone achieve this level of perfection in one lifetime. So, he lit upon Paul's Grace mention and it's been downhill from there. Your average Christian thinks if he believes in Jesus (misguided scripture), grace will allow him to have his sin slate wiped clean and he'll go to a paradise he couldn't even describe (also nonscriptural). The gospels teach reincarnation. So, Luther, you'll have as many lifetimes as it takes for you to start demonstrating godly behaviors. As it turns out, Paul taught a sort of Gnosticism, so his grace remark can't be the short cut it's taken for nowadays. Reincarnation (which is the real meaning of resurrection) has the bonus of providing all the tiny souls with more developed souls. It's not a perfect system, but it might have worked out if the true theology had been taught from the beginning. As it is, we have a thimble soul like Trump and most billionaires. But, reincarnation provides hope for such a moral void as Trump, Putin, and I guess, Hitler. Yikes!

I hope this helps to explain why so many Christians have ignorant, unthoughtful, unkind beliefs. Their brains are lazy. Their religious leaders don't know shinola.

[angrychair]

39. Thank you

For the insightful perspective.
As you have alluded my question and follow up is driven by the consumer-derived version of Christianity. It can look impressive but has the depth of a kiddie pool.
Your average American evangelical doesn't actually believe or understand the majority of the Bible or likely even really, honestly, believes that God even exist. They are simply hedging their bets. They would never say so out loud. What they don't realize though is that they don't have to say it. That is one question that is easy to understand.

[Karadeniz]

44. Yep !

[Hellbound Hellhound]

41. Why? To be blunt... To see it happen. See full post for context.

I 100% KNOW the outcome of certain things I do (in videogames). When I play games, I 100% have the capacity to look up and 'know' the answer to "Why do these people exist". Nonetheless, I want to see it unfold.

I want to see it. I want to "experience" it through the eyes of a character. I want to watch, let's say, Geralt of Rivia FAIL. I want to "Watch" him "fail" even if I know he's GOING to fail, because I dictate it. I want to see his reaction. I want to know his motivations. I want to "Build the story" and watch him "Fail" because, to be blunt, without the character "Geralt of Rivia" I'd never know what it means to live the life of a "Witcher", to walk a mile in his digital shoes, to see the persecution and perseverance he goes through.

Put simply, I, as a technically omniscient controller (I can shut the program down whenever I want, making the "simulation" "die" on a whim) want to live vicariously through a character who has, despite any of my input otherwise, lived a life that I cannot and will never live. Similar, when I play Car Mechanic Simulator... I will never be a Car Mechanic. The game itself is not representative of a proper mechanic and is not a "perfect" recreation of said profession. Yet I do it, because I'd like an approximation. Because the act of screwing in bolts, repairing bits and bobs and painting the results is pleasing to me. Because I'd never do it in "real" life but I can do it in "fake" life using a surrogate that is ultimately meaningless, heartless and soulless.

Not going to say that satisfactorily answers your question. Just something to think on.