Child rape is illegal and should be punished even if it is a republican president or congressman.

[onecaliberal]

An underage female is NOT a young woman, but a CHILD.

Apparently it needs to be said.

[Think. Again.]

1. I'm disgusted that this is even a conversation.

What have we become that these known abusers are walking free to strike again?

[Clouds Passing]

2. An underaged child being sexually abused ruins their lives for the rest of their lives.

The stigma of rape lives on in a child. The feelings of dirtiness, badness, wrongness linger long after the rape. If the community gets wind of the rape, the rape victim is the one who is psychologically attacked by the community. This makes the victim’s suffering a million times worse.

Merrick Garland deserves no accolades, no forgiveness, no congratulations for repeatedly setting child rapists free. He has been the worst person of the Biden administration. Period.

[onenote]

5. Which child rapists did Garland set free?

What federal crime were they accused of committing?
Why don't these prosecutions matter. https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/violent-crime/vcac/violent-crimes-against-children-news

[Clouds Passing]

24. Goetz, Dump........... Stop defending MG, I am not in the mood for that now!

Last edited Fri Dec 27, 2024, 01:37 PM - Edit history (1)

And yes, every single child who is sexually assaulted deserves justice! all of us! every single one of us! I have had zero recourse for the years of assault as a minor! zero! And infuriates me that these people continue to get off with no consequence!

So stop just stop!

I deleted epstein, although they are all the same.

[onenote]

28. Epstein died more than a year before Garland took office

If pointing out facts is defending Garland then I guess I’m guilty.

[MineralMan]

31. Facts? We don't need no stinking facts!

[Clouds Passing]

32. Yes he did. Child molesters defend each other and that is a FACT.

[onecaliberal]

8. Yes. I have first hand knowledge.

It does ruin.

[Clouds Passing]

30. I'm sorry

[Frasier Balzov]

3. Is federal legislation needed to standardize the age of consent?

It varies between 16 to 18 from state to state.

[Quiet Em]

15. With this creepy MAGA movement happening it should be looked at.

There is not much to stop some of these vile perverts from attempting to lower the age of consent in some States.

Good historical read on the issue.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/what-raising-age-sexual-consent-taught-women-about-vote-180975658/

The very first bill ever proposed by a female lawmaker in the United States came from Colorado state representative Carrie Clyde Holly in January 1895. Building on a decade of women’s activism, Holly’s ambitious legislation sought to raise the age of consent in the state to 21 years old. In 1890, the age at which girls could consent to sex was 12 or younger in 38 states. In Delaware, it was seven

In the late 19th century, the prevalence of sexual assault and sexually transmitted infections (STIs) compelled thousands of women to political action. Based on English Common Law dating back to the 1500s, American lawmakers had selected 10 or 12 as the age of consent to coincide with the onset of puberty, as if once a girl menstruated she was ready to have sex. Men accused of raping girls as young as 7 could (and did) simply say “she consented” to avoid prosecution.

Between 1886 and 1900, the WCTU petitioned every state legislature in the country, garnering more than 50,000 signatures in Texas alone, and dispatched women to legislative sessions from coast to coast to demand that the age of consent be raised to 18. Many lawmakers rejected women’s presence in public affairs and further resented the unprecedented campaign to curtail white men’s sexual prerogatives. So they stone-walled WCTU members, inserted neutralizing or mocking language in their proposed bills, and occasionally outright banned women from their galleries. The few legislators who went on record in support of young ages of consent voiced sympathy for hypothetical men who would be ensnared into marriage by conniving girls who consented to sex and later threatened to press charges. Nevertheless, by 1890, the WCTU and their allies in the labor and populist movements had succeeded in raising the age of consent to 14 or 16 in several states. This marked significant progress, but women advocates still wanted to raise it to 18.

[MineralMan]

4. The age of sexual consent varies from 16-18, depending on the state.

See this for a full list:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent_in_the_United_States

When it comes to legal issues, facts matter.

[Scrivener7]

7. I am missing your point. Are you saying that if a congressman has sex with

a seventeen-year-old, it isn't rape because she might be legally of age in another state?

Or, if that isn't the point you are making, what is?

[MineralMan]

9. My point is simple. If someone is at or older than the age of consent,

calling that person a "child" does not make it so. And there is no universal standard about that age. So, we're talking about something that varies from place to place.

Laws depend on details. So, I can't say whether your unnamed congressman raped a child or not. That's a matter for a court of law, if the law was violated.

Personally, I think young women 18 or younger should be left alone by grown up men who hold political offices. Period. It's highly inappropriate whether it is legal or not.

But, you can't charge someone with a crime unless there was a crime. And when it comes to sex with minors under 18, that depends on what state you're in. Not my rules. Not your rules. It's laws.

Gaetz is a creepy man who does nasty things with young women. He should know better. He shouldn't do that. Can he be charged and convicted? I doubt it very much. So, there it is. We have laws. Laws have definitions of things. So, it depends, doesn't it?

[Scrivener7]

11. Well, no. It doesn't depend. Gaetz slept with a 17 year old in Florida where the age of consent is 18.

That is child rape.

So, again, I don't get your point. The OP's message is pretty clear cut.

[MineralMan]

12. I'm not defending Gaetz. He's a creep.

He probably could have been charged, but was not. I'm not in a position to decide such things. He has ruined his career, and it cost him his position as a member of Congress, along with his appointment as Attorney General, both of which are good things.

He was not prosecuted, though. Had he been, he probably would not have gotten convicted, given all of the circumstances.

I don't call 17-year-olds children. Minors, yes. Underaged minors when it comes to sexual consent, depending on location. I call them young women or young men.

When I was 18 and younger, I certainly engaged in sexual activity with young women of that age and a bit younger. When I graduated from high school, I didn't do that any more. Did I break the law as a teenager? Yes, I did. Pretty much everyone I knew then was breaking those laws. I was in California, where the age of consent at that time was 21. Was I charged with crimes? I was not, nor do I remember any high school kids getting charged with such crimes for doing the same things.

Why was Gaetz not charged with sex with a minor? I cannot answer that. He could have been, of course. A decision was made not to charge him. Not my decision, nor do I agree with that decision. But, it was made, and I think I know why it wasn't made. Insufficient evidence and the questionable liability to age of consent laws, probably. But no charges were made.

You can try to make me the bad guy here, but I'm not. I'm just explaining why referring to teenagers near or over the age of consent as "children" is inaccurate. You might disagree with me. That's fine. But I am not Gaetz.

[Scrivener7]

13. You made a comment about varying age of consent by state and said, "facts matter."

This was in reply to an OP that said child rape should be prosecuted, and it suggested there were assertions in that OP that contradicted the facts. But the OP did not say anything that would contradict the "facts" that you presented, so I was simply asking why you thought it was necessary to point out that ages of consent can vary.

No one is making you a bad guy. No one is saying you are defending Gaetz.

I am sure we could go on with this odd discussion of your feelings about varying ages of consent, about how you refer to 17 year olds, and about your sexual history, which doesn't really apply to the topic at hand. But let's not.

Instead, I'm going to assume that you actually DO agree with the OP's assertion that child rape is illegal and should be punished.

I think we can leave it with that simple point which was, after all, the original point in the OP.

[MineralMan]

16. The question is about what the definition of a "child" is.

And that's the question I'm addressing.

Child rape is horrifying. Sex with older teenagers is probably not "child rape." Indeed, there are laws to that effect. I'm simply clarifying terminology, because calling things by their correct terms is just good practice. I do not, in any way, condone "child rape."

That is my point.

[chowder66]

23. In legal terms a child is a minor that is below the age of majority

Which varies by state. The most common age is 18.

These minors or children have less rights and less responsibilities.

Outside of the law, children can be called youth, young people and more but they are not adults until the reach the majority age.

[MineralMan]

27. When it comes to sexual consent, it varies.

Yes, majority is at 18, but the age of consent is lower than that in most states. I think only six have it at 18.. The rest are 17 or 16. Why? Because adolescents commonly have sex before 18. So, the laws look at that when it comes to the age of sexual consent.

That's a technical and legal point only, though. But, if a person is at or older than the age of consent in some state, statutory rape isn't chargeable.

And for this situation, that's what matters, in legal terms.

The word "child" is a loaded word, really, when it comes to the teenage years.

[Clouds Passing]

34. "Child" is not a loaded word when it comes to teen years. Teens are still considered children.

Their minds are not fully developed.

“Understanding the Teen Brain
It doesn’t matter how smart teens are or how well they scored on the SAT or ACT. Good judgment isn’t something they can excel in, at least not yet.

The rational part of a teen’s brain isn’t fully developed and won’t be until age 25 or so.

In fact, recent research has found that adult and teen brains work differently. Adults think with the prefrontal cortex, the brain’s rational part. This is the part of the brain that responds to situations with good judgment and an awareness of long-term consequences. Teens process information with the amygdala. This is the emotional part.

In teen’s brains, the connections between the emotional part of the brain and the decision-making center are still developing—and not always at the same rate. That’s why when teens have overwhelming emotional input, they can’t explain later what they were thinking. They weren’t thinking as much as they were feeling.”

https://www.stanfordchildrens.org/en/topic/default?id=understanding-the-teen-brain-1-3051

[onenote]

63. So Kyle Rittenhouse was a 17 year old "child"?

A universal definition of who is a "child" would be a bad idea. It makes sense to define age of consent specifically, but folks can disagree as to where the line should be drawn and for what circumstances -- 16, 17, or 18.

[Polybius]

44. It would be nice to have every state have the same age of consent

But who knows if they could come to an agreement.

[chowder66]

55. I agree and I would like to see it be 18.

[Polybius]

58. One of my friends thinks it should be 21

Since that's the age of drinking and gambling.

[chowder66]

60. There are a lot of families that would like to launch their kids earlier than 21.

[Quiet Em]

37. What Gaetz did is punishable up to 15 years

Gaetz committed a crime in the State of Florida.

Under Florida law, a person who is 24 years old or older who has sex with a person 16 or 17 years of age has committed a second-degree felony, punishable by up to 15 years in prison.

"A person charged with this offense may not claim ignorance or misrepresentation of the minor’s age as a defense," the report pointed out. State law also prohibits consideration of the minor's previous sexual conduct as relevant.

https://www.pnj.com/story/news/politics/2024/12/23/florida-statutory-rape-matt-gaetz-congressional-investigation/77170619007/

[MineralMan]

38. Then the State of Florida should charge and try him.

It that going to happen? Somehow I doubt it.

[Quiet Em]

40. They absolutely should have. It's disturbing.

It's a serious offense and it should be treated as such.

[MineralMan]

42. Well, probably the statute of limitations prevents that now.

I wonder how many such cases are brought to trial in Florida. Not many, I'll bet. And yet, I'll also bet there are many that might have been. I suspect that such cases only go to trial in certain circumstances, actually. Why? Because they are probably hard to prove. Almost always, such things come down to "He said; she said."

So, there are probably quite a few men over the age of 24 who have sex with 17-year-olds. We don't know how many, of course.

[Quiet Em]

46. A minor can't consent and ignorance of age is not a defense.

he said/she said doesn't work in statutory rape cases.

[onenote]

64. Correct The statute of limitations barred prosecution

see post #49

[Scrivener7]

45. Are you saying you believe their non-prosecution

means he didn't commit a crime?

I still can't make heads or tails of what you are arguing here.

[MineralMan]

52. I didn't say that at all.

What I said was that I suspect there are few prosecutions in Florida for statutory rape cases with 17-year-old victims. I haven't been able to find any statistics, though.

Again, though, I am disputing the use of the word "child" in this thread.

[Polybius]

43. Is a 17 year old legally defined as a child?

I would call that person at best a minor. Calling her a child makes it sound like she's 9.

[Scrivener7]

48. Yes. The age of consent is 18. Legally, Gaetz raped her.

Because legally, she's a child.

It doesn't really matter what you would call her. He committed a rape.

[Polybius]

50. My state has always been 17

It seems kinda dumb to charge someone with rape that's perfectly legal in nearly half the other states. Maybe a fine. We should have a universal age of consent, either 17 or 18.

[Scrivener7]

56. It would make things much easier for pervy politicians.

[Scrivener7]

6. Or, as they sometimes refer to child sex abuse victims: "underage women."

I seriously want to rip limbs off people who use that phrase.

[onecaliberal]

10. Look how few people care even here.

This place is unrecognizable.

[Scrivener7]

14. This thread certainly has gone weird.

[Clouds Passing]

33. Yep the usual suspects arguing about moot points. Missing the point of the damage rapists cause.

[Scrivener7]

35. Yes. I would have thought agreeing with this OP without

reservation, or at least not questioning its validity, should have been easy.

[Clouds Passing]

39. Instead it turned into a questioning of the meaning of the word is

Feels like a gang assault

[Scrivener7]

41. Mansplaining often does send conversations

to bizarre and unnecessary places.

[Clouds Passing]

62. Thank you

[onecaliberal]

47. I see a pattern with my threads.

[rubbersole]

17. But, but is it illegal if child rape happens on a private island...

...with a landing strip for private jets? Asking for a billionaire.

[NotHardly]

18. Remember, the majority of MAGA voted for a child rapist

[Stargleamer]

25. For the life of me, I could never understand why the Harris campaign. . .

didn’t make this a campaign issue. I would have brought it up repeatedly in the debate, as well as the fact that 28 women accused the POS of SA/sexual harassment/rape and he was found guilty in a NY court of sexual assault.

[Bluethroughu]

19. DOJ???

[Greyhead]

20. My wife was raped by her bil

She was 16 at the time she now is 68 and it still bothers her.

[OMGWTF]

21. Speaking as someone who was raped at 13, I think the punishment should be double when it involves a kid.

[onecaliberal]

54. I'm sorry.

[orwell]

22. Imaginary "liberal" child rape...

...is far more evil than real Con child rape.

It says so in the imaginary Con Bible.

Imaginary Con child rape is allowed if the rape is performed by a beloved cultural icon or wealthy influential leader.

It is the Con bible Eleventh commandment...

[Stargleamer]

26. ALL rape is illegal and should be punished

not just child rape

[MuseRider]

36. I wrote something similar

but did not post it. I was trying to put too much into it and just could not make it make good sense in the time I had. I found it odd there was a difference, it had never come to mind, Thank you for making the sense easy and making the point clearer than I could.

[Stargazer99]

29. Coming from a person who ran away from home to prevent rape from a father figure at 15 yrs of age

Last edited Fri Dec 27, 2024, 05:22 PM - Edit history (1)

pisses me off. A kid until 21 yrs of age has no concept of what it does to females, I am damn sick of kissing the ass of males that have no control over their hormones and lack of decency. When I say I do not in general respect the male in our society I am told I am mean...yes I know there are decent men but from what I've seen they are not in the majority.
It is a static that rape occurs more in the family than this clutching of pearls regarding gay men.

[onecaliberal]

53. Couldn't agree more and same feelings.

[onenote]

49. As much as I wish the facts and law didn't operate to allow Gaetz to escape punishment, they are what they are.

While I'm quite confident that there is no one here who would defend Gaetz, facts and law still matter and, unfortunately, the facts and law in this situation have allowed Gaetz to escape punishment for his actions.

First, the facts establish (beyond a reasonable doubt in my opinion) that he had sex with a 17 year old in Florida July 2017.
Second, the law in Florida sets the age of consent at 18.
Third, the law in Florida sets the statute of limitations for bringing a statutory rape prosecution at 3 years.
Fourth, the fact that Gaetz had sex with a 17 year old in July 2017 did not come to the attention of state or federal authorities until sometime after his associate Joel Greenberg was arrested on federal identity theft and stalking charges unrelated to Greenberg's activities in procuring women and minors to engage in sex with himself and others, including Gaetz. Specifically, while Greenberg was arrested on stalking/identity theft charges in June 2020, the first mention of sex crimes came in a second superseding indictment issued in August 2020.
Fifth, while there is evidence that Gaetz had sex with the same person in the Bahamas in March 2021, by that time she had passed her 18th birthday.
Fifth, by the time information about Gaetz having had sex with a 17 year old became known, it appears that the statute of limitations had run, precluding Florida from bringing a statutory rape charge against Gaetz.

Finally, it is worth noting that after Garland took office in March 2021, DOJ aggressively pursued charges against Joel Greenberg, resulting in a plea deal with a long prison sentence.

Would we all be happier if the timeline and the applicable laws were different? I know I would. But they are what they are.

[keithbvadu2]

51. IOKIYAAR

[no_hypocrisy]

57. The brother of my friend is spending 25 years in a Texan prison

because he had sex with a 16 year old. One occurrence. No parole.

[Habitation]

59. I agree but the legal system is inconsistent with respect to even a 15 year old's ability to make sound choices

There are dozens of 15-year-old criminals serving LIFE IN PRISON WITHOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF PAROLE!

Just saying, since the {corrupt} supreme court has upheld that they are responsible for their actions.

ie
Brett Jones
Carly Madison Gregg

[LeftInTX]

65. I was raped numerous times when I was 13 and 14. It isn't that easy.

My parents found out and they tried to get me to talk about it so they could press charges. I absolutely refused to tell them anything. They grounded me and grounded me trying to force me to confess. I was grounded for several years. They needed me to speak because gossip is not enough proof to bring charges. So I told them nothing happened. I wasn't on good terms with my parents and I didn't trust them. So, I refused to acknowledge it.

At age 13, I was old enough to testify and they would need it for evidence. Gossip is not evidence and I told my parents to stop listening to gossip. I felt like I was the one being punished.

Several years later, the same guys gang raped another girl. Guess who got hauled in to the police station? They got my parents to haul me into the police station. There was alcohol at the party and they said, "We heard you were at this party and there was alcohol and if we find out you are involved with alcohol again, you will be sent to juvenile court"

Guess who didn't get hauled in? The guys that raped the girl. LE did not do a good damn thing to them. They were adults and were not subject to juvenile parental crap. (Their parents would not have hauled them in anyway!) This was a case where the victim's parent went to the police and the victim herself went to the police. I was not there when she was raped. I had to be home early. I knew nothing about what happened to her. Yet, I was the one being punished.


A year later, I was caught with alcohol and was tried in juvenile court. I got a year of probation. So eff that shit! Victims are treated like shit. I was raped and I was the one who was punished. Perps got off.

ETA: These perps were not GOP. They did not have money at all. They were all from low income families. They were hoodlums. Common criminals. Some had served previous time in "reform school". One of the guys ended up in prison for other crimes shortly afterward. They certainly weren't members of congress. They were all high school drop outs. Most of them died young. The guy that hosted the party was killed shortly afterward when he ran the RR crossing next to his house.

Misty Croslin has been in prison for 14 years and she still won't talk! She was 16 and babysitting when a six year old girl disappeared. She's serving 25 years on trumped up drug charges. The kid's father even married her, so she would not testify against him. https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-orlando-sentinel-misty-croslin-2/19473599/