About the F-15 downed over Iran

[AverageOldGuy]

The missing aircrew member.

It now appears that the US aircraft downed over Iran was an F-15 with a crew of two. One was reportedly rescued and a search and rescue (SAR) operation is going on for the other one.

Let’s talk about what happens to the aircrew of a high-performance aircraft like the F-15 when things turn to shit.

THEY DIE. If the aircraft is (1) hit with any kind of fire – missile, shoulder-fired anti-aircraft missile, machine gun fire, a lucky shot from and AK-47 on the ground; or, (2) something breaks inside the aircraft, either way, it’s all over. Pieces of flesh and body parts may be recovered if the whole thing doesn’t burn to a crisp.

THEY EJECT. The movies make this look exciting and romantic. It’s not. The F-15 typically cruises at 570–650 mph, may slow to around 200 mph to identify a target.

Each crewmember sits in a specially-made-to-fit ejection seat with a rocket on the bottom and a parachute in the top. The guy in the front seat drives the airplane and fires the weapons; the back seater can fly the thing as well as fire the weapons but his main job is to manage the electronics – detect and jam radar, identify targets, and the like.

The canopy is in two pieces because they two crewmembers eject separately – the guy in the back punches out first, then the front seater after a 2 second (?) delay – this prevents them from killing each other by colliding in their ejection seats. There have been incidents where the back seater pulled his ejection handle, it did not work, the front seater went out first, the back seater rode it in. Also vice versa.

To eject: Hunker down in a tight bundle, arms and legs tight to the seat; reach up, pull down an ejection curtain that’s built into the back seat and should protect you from the worst of the blast of air when you pop out; pull the ejection handle between your legs; the rocket in your seat explodes and fires you out of the bird with the speed of a bullet. After a short delay, the chute opens.

A lot of things can happen.

Flail injuries – exactly what they say. Try this – get in a car, someone else driving, get up to 75 mph, roll down the window, stick your head and one arm out into the wind stream. Now, imagine doing that at 300 MPH – arms and legs can be ripped up, flail around, break, pop out of socket.

Chute failure – you can guess what this causes.

THEY MAY SURVIVE EJECTION.

Landing after ejecting is not like the Army’s Golden Knights parachute team landing softly on a football field. This is a guy, scared shitless, possibly injured, maybe not even conscious. The seat is designed for the occupant to land in it safely. That’s what it’s designed for. Real life does not always follow the design.

So now you are on the ground.

Where the fuck am I? Why does my right leg not work? Are those guys running toward me with pitchforks friendly or not?

The seat has in it a BEEPER – a radio transmitter, operating on a fixed emergency frequency, sending out an audible beep-beep-beep. Rescue aircraft can home in on it . . . until the battery runs out.

The guy on the ground has an emergency radio, a beeper that he activates, a few flares, and a pistol.

SAR crews are listening for beepers as well as calling the missing guy’s call sign on the emergency frequency.

Remember the EC-3 electornic control aircraft that the Iranians – with Russian targeting assistance – destroyed on the ground in Saudi Arabia last week? There should be an EC-3 in the air that can pinpoint where the F-15 got into trouble and where it disappeared from radar. That’s probably why one crewmember was rescued.

I’m an optimist but I’m not holding out a lot of hope for the missing guy. Best we can hope for is he will be captured. Unlike Hegseth, I suspect the Iranians will treat him much better than we are treating them.

This is NOT a goddam video game. People get killed doing this shit and when it's over they do not get up, dust themselves off, and get back into the game.

[Whyisthisstillclose]

1. This war is only real for the military involved and those that really care about

human life. For far too many it is a sporting event.

[magicarpet]

5. ... sporting event,...

... or macho meathead video game.

[underpants]

2. Good info. As I understand it, getting one or both legs broken during the ejection is not uncommon at all

I think I heard that as a matter of policy, once you’ve ejected twice you are grounded. That’s across the board regardless of if your legs got broken or not on either one.

I could very well be wrong on that.

[Arthur_Frain]

8. Spinal compression.

Pretty sure everyone who ever ejects from an aircraft in this manner is guaranteed lifelong back pain as a best case scenario.

[underpants]

12. I would think so yeah. I know a certain number a parachute jumps

always gets you a certain % disabled at the VA. I have relative who made I don’t know how many jumps and he has disability on top of his retirement. It’s apparently very common and well known to do.

[Wounded Bear]

14. Back when I was in they were limited to 3 ejections...

after that, no more flying in high performance jets. Not sure if that is changed, but it probably isn't. If anything, the process is more violent that it was back then due to higher aircraft speed.

[InstantGratification]

59. It actually has changed

That restriction was with the Martin Baker ejection seats in the F-4. The ACES2 seats in F-15, F-16 and A-10s doesn't have that limit. Don't know about the newer aircraft like the F-22 and F-35.

[druidity33]

52. You get grounded for losing 2 aircraft...

not for ejecting.

McCain lost 4 (?) btw...

[fujiyamasan]

3. Great post

I appreciate the discussion of the mechanics of this. It’s so incredibly complex and quite a feat of engineering. I hope he’s found alive.

What a shit show.

[magicarpet]

4. From the vision of the fighter pilot,..

... thanks for posting AverageOldGuy.

[Fiendish Thingy]

6. There were several planes shot down by friendly fire at the very beginning of this war

And the pilots ejected to safety, so your post is not accurate.

[Wounded Bear]

15. His post is accurate. Ejecting is a very violent process, and injuries due to ejection are common...nt

[Fiendish Thingy]

27. I object to this statement:

THEY DIE. If the aircraft is (1) hit with any kind of fire – missile, shoulder-fired anti-aircraft missile, machine gun fire, a lucky shot from and AK-47 on the ground; or, (2) something breaks inside the aircraft, either way, it’s all over. Pieces of flesh and body parts may be recovered if the whole thing doesn’t burn to a crisp.

This is clearly not true- several planes were shot down by friendly fire in the first hours of the war, and the pilots ejected safely- there is even video circulating of Kuwaitis “rescuing” a pilot who is standing calmly immediately after landing after ejecting. They run up to her and ask her if she is OK, and she calmly tells them she is fine.

[questionseverything]

30. He clearly said, they die or eject, or at least it was clear to me

You seem so invested in arguing that you have not taken the time to understand the material presented

[Brenda]

32. Seems like a pattern.

[Wounded Bear]

35. He was a bit unclear. He was offering scenarios...

It wasn't clear at first, but then I realized this was a list of possible outcomes for when a plane is hit.

As in: Either they die immediately, or they punch out, or they... etc. Ejecting is like a crash, really. Sometimes you walk away, sometimes you get carried away, sometimes you don't survive. Ejecting is in that "best of possible bad outcomes."

[Joinfortmill]

41. Why do you do this? You could have easily contacted the OP privately or at the least been polite.

[Fiendish Thingy]

51. I didn't intend to be rude

My intention was merely to add some factual balance to the discussion.

The OP was fairly hyperbolic, and I sought to add some reality-based perspective, based on recent, actual events.

[flashman13]

43. Let's get real here. The difference between dying instantly or walking away is pure luck.

There are a large number of variables. They all have to break good for the pilots to walk away. Probably the biggest single variable is aircraft speed at ejection. If the plane is flying at full throttle when hit and instantly starts to break up, you eject at full speed. Major trauma can be expected. If the plane stays together and the pilot retains some control, there is a good chance of slowing the plane down so that the ejection is far less brutal.

There are a number of good videos of the event. Initially there is a large explosion. In just a matter of seconds you can see both pilots ejecting. That means a high speed ejection. Also the ejections are more or less simultaneous. That could be problematic for one or both pilots. The point is that those two variables did not break in favor of the pilots. There are still plenty of other ways for the situation to go bad.

I do hope both pilots were very lucky today.

BTW If a helicopter went down, there are an equally large number a variables governing the survival of that aircrew. If the craft was only damaged and the pilot could retain some control, they have a chance. Without control it's going down like an anvil; all KIA. I hope luck was with these crewman as well.

So tell me again, WTF are we attacking Iran again? Maybe someone can explain it to the aircrews in harms way today. I can't.

[littlemissmartypants]

18. Define safety.

[Fiendish Thingy]

22. There is a video shot in Kuwait of a pilot standing calmly immediately after landing

The Kuwaitis are running up to her asking if she is alright, and the pilot calmly tells them she is fine.

[littlemissmartypants]

23. Define safely.

[littlemissmartypants]

25. And by the way, I can think of at least one person...

Often spoken about here who stands up and is not ok.

[City Lights]

7. Thank you for this info! nt

[RockRaven]

9. While one would expect capturing and keeping alive to be the rational move for Iran's leadership

it does not follow that everyone in Iran sees that the same way.

Also, some of them are going to have heard Kegsbreath "no quarter" bluster.

[democrank]

10. I very much appreciate your non-video game description.

Pull this lever, push this button….that’s the known. The unknown is truly terrifying. I so hope the missing pilot is found by friendly forces.

Thank you for posting this.

[Lifeafter70]

11. My brother flew both f15 and f16 in the first Iraq war

He was the "guy in the back" he didn't care for the f16, thought it had stability problems.

[PCIntern]

13. Your post reminds me of the YouTube video

Which the trauma surgeon made wherein he shows a scene from an action film and the doctor says what would really happen to the individual involved. My favorite was from the Die Hard sequel where Bruce Willis and his son fall like ten stories through wooden scaffolding which is ostensibly breaking their fall. The diagnosis is multiple fractures including the pelvis and instant death. For both.

In the film they just stand up and stroll away. Uh-huh.

[Callie1979]

16. I have a friend who has actually ejected from an F-15. He said once is enough

he wasnt injured & it wasnt in battle, but everything worked as it should.

[niyad]

17. Thank you.

[James48]

19. A uh-60 Blackhawk was also apparently hit.

I saw Iranian released video of a helicopter smoking after being hit. A rescue Blackhawk normally has from 3 to up to ten aboard. Some sources are saying the helicopter crew was rescued. I don’t know. I would discount that until there is something more solid on that.

[Eddie Haskell 60]

20. The pilots are war criminals at this point

"Just following orders" is NO excuse.

[ornotna]

29. That's nonsense

Get a grip.

[Eddie Haskell 60]

31. Pilots know the destruction they wield

They're performing combat duties without a declaration of war. If Canadian pilots destroyed San Francisco bridge, that would be a war crime. Double-tapping the rescue workers like we did to Iran would also be a war crime.

[EX500rider]

38. When's the last time a US war was "declared"?

The United States last formally declared war during World War II, with the final declarations approved by Congress on June 4, 1942, against Bulgaria, Hungary, and Romania
Yet Korea, Vietnam, Iraq I/II etc were all wars.

[Eddie Haskell 60]

39. that's all true

and many war crimes took place during all of them.

[EX500rider]

40. Many war crimes are committed in all wars, declared or not

[Eddie Haskell 60]

42. yep

[Torchlight]

54. Quite the unsuprorted assertion

resting on quite a few presumtions.

[11 Bravo]

57. Horseshit.

[littlemissmartypants]

21. Loss of life is horrible. Loss of a highly trained, experienced specialist pilot is even worse.

Thank you for this, AOG. I love you. ❤️

[newdeal2]

24. All I know is Trump has created a mess

All of his own doing. He looks like a fool (no surprise) after today's (multiple?) events especially after boasting about how much he was winning and how dare we question him.

[wiggs]

26. Thank you! nt

[Coolgoober]

28. Thanks For The Info

OldGuy

[relayerbob]

33. I have seen stories that the second guy is alive and back in Iraq now

[Buddyzbuddy]

34. Thank you for that horrifying but detailed description, AOG.

Somebody needs to convey that Information to the Secretary of Defense and the Felon.

[True Dough]

36. That ejection

comes with about 25 Gs. Hard to imagine the force of that on a human body. Survivable, of course, but not pretty.

[Joinfortmill]

37. There are really no words, people. Just read it.

[OMGWTF]

44. Rethuglicans are the worst enemy America has ever had.

PS -- Jim Walsh, who is the Chairman of the Washington state Rethuglican party, and who is also a legislator, is working closely with the T💩p administration to deny federal funds to the state. WTAF?

[fujiyamasan]

45. I would urge those

(Especially the confidently ignorant and argumentative poster claiming it’s a safe procedure) to watch this video. Here’s a quick summary of what ejecting does:

Ejecting from a fighter jet subjects the pilot to intense, brief acceleration forces, typically ranging from 12g to 20g (12 to 20 times the force of gravity) within less than a second. This vertical acceleration, designed to propel the seat clear of the aircraft, poses significant risk of injury, including spinal compression, limb injury, and potential loss of consciousness, according to The Trauma of Ejecting from a Plane: The Physics of Ejecting from a Fighter Jet.

[chowder66]

55. Interesting information but I stopped when his hand went through his glasses and into his face. I suspected AI.

And that moment proved it. The channel does not state AI or Artificial blah, blah so I can't support it. I can't trust the information without researching it on my own so I'll either look for an article or just blow it off all together.

[RoseTrellis]

46. Mostly correct

Mostly accurate, appreciate your description!
A few horribly wrong details I can’t let pass without correction, forgive me.

“The canopy is in two pieces because they two crewmembers eject separately”
No. All F-15 canopies are one piece.

“The seat is designed for the occupant to land in it safely”
Incorrect, seat/man separation occurs relative early in the ejection sequence.

“ reach up, pull down an ejection curtain that’s built into the back seat and should protect you from the worst of the blast of air when you pop out”

The ACES 2 ejection seat doesn’t have a curtain, nor any ejection controls you reach up for.

Other than that, great post!

[usaf-vet]

47. I would say BEFORE you can be even considered to hold the SECDEF position, you need to experience ALL the training level

of being ejected from the trainer and riding the chute to the ground. Get hit multiple times with a 9mm and or a 45 while wearing a bulletproof vest. Go through rapid decompression in a alitude trainer.

Not just some loudmouth who talks the talk but can walk the walk.

[Mysterian]

49. I'd be happy with someone loyal to the constitution

and concerned about the welfare of the troops.

Not important character traits for republicans.

[Lifeafter70]

56. According to my brother the training doesn't end

When you hit the ground. Survival training for pilots is no cakewalk.

[Permanut]

48. Thanks for this, NotSoAverageOldGuy..

Incredible post, we need a "100 Recs" button.

[3825-87867]

50. Trump and Hegseth are treating this like a Hollywood Movie

and I really believe they have no idea what it's like. Next they'll think ground work is just like Rambo and the other imaginary movies.
Believe me, lt ain't close.
As AOG said, you don't simply put another quarter in the machine and have a do over.

[orangecrush]

53. God bless you for putting the truth out

[RetiredParatrooper]

58. You do NOT 'land in the seat'

The ejectee separates from it.