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To BE or To Be Looked At? Women: You are capable of much more than being looked at.
Cross-post from Good Reads.
Ever heard this quote? Men act and women appear. Men look at women. Women watch themselves being looked at. This determines not only most relations between men and women but also the relation of women to themselves. The surveyor of woman in herself is male: the surveyed female. Thus she turns herself into an object—and most particularly an object of vision: a sight. (John Berger, Ways of Seeing, 1977).
This insightful man was referring to the idea of “objectification,” which we’ve all heard once or twice. But when we think of the term, we probably think of sexualized female bodies, or sexualized parts of female bodies…which isn’t the whole idea here. When we understand the whole of objectification, we can better grasp the role it plays in our daily lives and the ways it may keep us from fulfilling all we want to do with our days. When we travel around giving our one-hour Beauty Redefined visual presentation, we explain to our audiences that objectification takes on many roles:
Say you’re walking down the sidewalk on a beautiful day. Someone who has internalized an outsider’s perspective of herself will often spend more time adjusting her clothing or hair, wondering what other people are thinking of her, judging the shape of her shadow or reflection in a window, etc. She will picture herself walking – she literally turns herself into an object of vision – instead of enjoying the sunny weather, looking around, thinking about anything else, etc. If you find yourself thinking and acting like this, you aren’t alone. In fact, you are just one of millions of females growing up in a world that teaches us to survey ourselves every waking moment. Profit-driven media tells us how we can “Look Hotter From Behind!” in fitness magazines, “Look Wow Now!” on makeover shows every hour of every day, “Look 10 Years Younger!” using every anti-aging procedure and product under the sun. Notice the emphasis on looking … Do you find you survey yourself as you move through life? That you ever turn yourself into an object of vision: a sight?
Much more at link: http://www.beautyredefined.net/to-be-or-to-be-looked-at/
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starspunch78
(9 posts)I think dressing to be seen or looked at is within a woman's right to do so. I also think the biggest compliment a woman can get is probably from another woman. At the same time, I get infuriated when I am being checked out or lured at-especially when I am trying to "Just Be" running errands and doing things that should not attract any attention. As a woman, the process of being stared at by men starts waaaayyyy too young. And that is frustrating.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)everything that was walking by. i started making eye contact and doing the same, down and up. every. single. man. broke eye contact and lowered his head.
they do it as empowerment. it is not meant as a compliment. and they well know it, and dont like the same.
EXACTLY.
They do it to show who is in Power Over.
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)It is as simple as that.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)there is a difference in a look at a person, and an ownership of a person. women understand the difference. we get it all our fuckin lives.
when i did the exact same to the men, they were uncomfortable and broke eye contact and looked down. the same thing the woman/girl does when a man does it to a woman. now, .... i look them right in the eye, and they are the ones that become uncomfortable.
there is a difference from looking at a person. i do it ALL the time, and the men dont break eye contact and look down. and there is the difference of an ownership.
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)I did not know about that. I wonder if these are the same guys that the leave the hateful, rape-threat posts to various political blogs written by women. I saw that thread, and I thought it was disturbing.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)i haev always spent time people watching. interesting. just what i do. it almost feels with some, they are looking at their porn when looking at women. i know i go on and on about that. but that is the best way i can explain. and it just seems last couple years to be escalating. and some men (some cultures) are particularly bad. you know it is not appreciation, but a power. they piss me off. now that i am older i can handle it. younger, i just wasnt comfortable being aggressive myself. it is also complicated. the whole dance thing. i would like to leave it for the young, but doesnt seem to happen.
but watch, and if you figure anything out, let us know
personally, i like having men in this forum giving pov.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)sittin in this room of women, lol lol.... yup, here it comes. so tell me
why do men seriously make comments like this, repeatedly.
" Most men are drawn to women." "It is as simple as that."
as iif it means anything. as if men are special in that they are drawn to women, with the assumption women arent as blessed? i was thinking about this last night. having two sons primping to attract girls. how girls are and have always been interested in good looking guys, just as guys are with girls. how the guy looks to see if a girl is looking, just as a girl does.
at what point do we condition our gender to say, women are to be looked at and men are to do the looking.
at what point do men own the right of a womans look and it is her job to present that to man.
it is like i grew up being told, by both genders, a womans body is a beautiful thing, not so much a mans body. that is why you see women naked everywhere and why you dont see the naked man.
now, i am heterosexual. i couldnt give a flying flip about the womans body. i have one, too. seen it for a lifetime. does nothing for me. but give me a well structured male body that shows all, in its excitement (ya, i prefer that look), and i am all over it.
where and why did we decide the male body was nothing to look at and male appearance doesnt matter, and women didnt look at men, like men did women.
remember back to this....." Most men are drawn to women." "It is as simple as that.". i hear it so often, so very often and the be all, end all answer to any discussion.
" at what point do we condition our gender to say, women are to be looked at and men are to do the looking."
It happens constantly. It is reinforced with the ubiquitousness of the 'male gaze' and the objectification of women.
I'm curious about your thoughts on those cutesy pictures that show little boys leering at women's bodies.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)because i am telling you, raising boys and having little boys around me for 16 yrs, something is up with that. all the little boys i have been around, there have been ONLY two that has done this.
only recently have i started putting on a bra when kids come over. they are older. they notice. i have big boobs. no big deal in this house, in tshirt without bra. but with guests, i get dressed. all the years, no kids noticed, paid attention, nothing.
two boys. at young ages. i have always been uncomfortable with and made sure i dressed when they came over.
one, at about nine was googlin boobs. got grounded. he was also a kid from divorced home. the X was the manly man and always teaching his boys what a man was. i was weary letting my boys hang with the kids when they were with this man. one afternoon, he takes the 10 and 12 yr olds to hooters, to check out the tits. and be sure not to tell the mom, his X. hm, and this is the kid that felt uncomfortable.
the ONLY other kid is my nephew. he was raised in a home of a unconnected, non emotional, alcoholic mother. and an over the top, insecure, alcoholic father that was incredibly controlling of his wife and very jealous. i went into his house for dinner once and he had a porn calendar with a naked woman with legs spread on his kitchen wall. 2, 4 yr old boys and 7 yr old girl. when i chewed his ass out, he told me, just the beauty of the female body.
it was all about using it as a weapon to control and shame his wife.
they divorced, go figure.
14 yrs and alone he still moans the loss of her.
he had stripper, 25 yrs younger than him as his GF raising preteen, teen boys. took them to boob bars.
hm, wonder why the boys are so fucked up. fuck, wonder why the oldest daughter is, too.
so, from personal experience when i see boys behave in a manner that is NOT natural, i say, what the fuck is going on in the home.
redqueen
(115,172 posts)I see it presented as funny and cute but it always makes my skin crawl.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)but they hoot and holler and giggle like a ..... bunch of little girls 
...... saying see see looking at boobie.
it is the most sophomoric, childish behavior. not to mention dishonest.
we seem to do it with a lot of photos when dealing with sexualizing women. even if the sexualizing isnt happening, make it happen.
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)I made the comment because I did not distinguish between the "ownership glare" and the "wow, she is pretty glance." From reading the thread, I thought the two were one. So I thought normal behavior was having additional stuff attached to it. My ignorance of the situation caused a communication breakdown.
"at what point do we condition our gender to say, women are to be looked at and men are to do the looking."
I am an English/Communication major, so I say it is in our language. Words like "mankind" is part of it, but I think there is more too.
Consider how we talk about the Obama family here on: Barack is a chess master and community organizer, the girls are cute, and Michele is beautiful. We talk about the man's accomplishments, and the women's appearance. It is not malicious, but it is there. Palin's appearance was mentioned on DU and television significantly more than McCain's, Barack Obama's, or Biden's appearance, even though they were in the same race. Barack Obama is a handsome guy, but this was rarely mentioned.
What gender is a dumb blonde? I made the following comment in a thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=115687
The title of the thread is: Oh GAG! Who's the moran blonde lady on the overnight CNN coverage? I noticed a pattern in our language, and the thread creator gave me a snarky reply because he or she did not want to be viewed as sexist. I don't begrudge the thread creator for that, but the language is still there.
at what point do men own the right of a womans look and it is her job to present that to man.
At the point she is currently working as a fashion model, actress, etc., but not during other times.
"it is like i grew up being told, by both genders, a womans body is a beautiful thing, not so much a mans body. that is why you see women naked everywhere and why you dont see the naked man."
Exactly. Magazines do communicate behavior.
"where and why did we decide the male body was nothing to look at and male appearance doesnt matter, and women didnt look at men, like men did women."
Good question. I have no idea.
"remember back to this....." Most men are drawn to women." "It is as simple as that.". i hear it so often, so very often and the be all, end all answer to any discussion."
Most people don't want to feel bad for noticing, but this thread is not just about noticing. I think it is a communication breakdown.
"but give me a well structured male body that shows all, in its excitement (ya, i prefer that look), and i am all over it."
OK...
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)ah ha. and you know, i have seen it before and had as much fun the first time i saw it. was it you that put it up for us, lol. i dont know where i saw it, but ya, that. thanks. is a catchy tune, and they have nice dance moves.
thank you zombie. over time i have noticed a consistency in your posts that i have come to really value and appreciate. i caught that post of yours with a blonde. i had rolled eyes at another BLONDE, omg. then saw your post and the reply.
i think language matters, and with language, certain things stand. like, only about men sexuality.... say WHA?? lol. or only the woman body being art. HUH?
appreciate your post, and taking it serious in reply.
is this a for real band, video, out to the public? i am not current in music or any of the other stuff.
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)that had a pic of politicians eating corn dogs. I figured if people want to gawk at others eating food, then that video is for them.
Cazwell is a real performer, but I don't really listen to his music. That video just cracks me up. I plugged his name into youtube, and many videos came up. They all looked naughty.
On a more serious note, I am attracted to feminism because feminist arguments are almost always the strongest arguments. In my opinion, the biggest weakness in feminism is marketing. Going against the status quo is difficult, and sexism is more embedded in our language than racism, homophobia, and other bigotries. I think ageism is in our language too, but not to the extent sexism is. Sexism is such a large part of our society that I assume I have sexist feelings I am not even aware of. That is one of the reasons I read the Feminist board every day. I am looking for weaknesses in my way of thinking.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)especially boys clued me into all the 'isms and conditioning fed to us. it allowed me to realize, i accept male was superior on the heirarchy, just cause. female body beautiful, not mans. and was huge WTFs to me.
i wouldnt be called a feminist for anything, cause they hate sex and men. not me.
sexism works for both genders, until it doesnt, anymore.
No one likes to get lured at. I started to confront men who do. If they just keep staring after I've stared them in the face and asked "what" I've walked up to them and asked "what? what is it? Do I know you?" Most of the time they just say no and turn away. One guy called me crazy and stormed off.
There's people watching and then there's infringing on personal space with your gaze. It's not that subtle of a difference.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)maybe when i was younger and in twenties there were times i dressed to be checked out and check out the checking out. but that has ogtten old, years ago. mostly, i brush my hair and were the clothes i do for ME. lol. it is all about me. i WANT to look nice for ME.
i cant remember the last time i dressed for the population at large.
yet men think, if a woman steps out with brushed hair it is to attract them.
too many women are just going thru their day with no interest in these men. but it is privileged and conditioned in them, this is a mans job.
spooky3
(36,432 posts)I remember one of our textbooks (for Health and Family Living or some other garbage course like that) included passages about how important girls' appearance was, how to be well-groomed, how to choose complementary colors for our outfits, etc. Another book described how doctors sometimes knew that there was something really wrong, when a patient no longer seemed to care about how she looked, etc., etc., etc.
A few years later, I was in a class where there was a group decision-making exercise, where we pretended to be marooned on a desert island, or something like that. Soap and water were among the 15 items that we had to rank as to importance as to what we would keep from our shipwreck. The instructor pointed out that girls were very superficial in wanting rank those high on the list because they just couldn't imagine going through a day where they couldn't bathe, etc., but that there were some other items that were more important (including some devices that you could jerry rig to produce water, etc.).
Now, which is it...women are bad because they don't work hard enough to make themselves attractive, or women are bad because they get distressed when they can't make themselves attractive?
Response to spooky3 (Reply #5)
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PhoenixAbove
(166 posts)Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)
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Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)This GD discussion seemed relevant here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/100289139
I know women who say that wearing high heels came naturally for them and they like the look, but it's always felt to me like dressing to be looked at.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)that are fun every once in a while. puts me almost up there with hubby. k. not that high, but it is fun walking in them and they are really comfortable.
i dont where heels often at all, so when i do i like it.
but certainly not enough to effect my feet
spooky3
(36,432 posts)The problem is that these chronic issues don't become apparent until years after young women start wearing the shoes, so they don't understand how serious the issues are. And by that time, there is often little that can be done.
If men's fashions created pain or disability (as opposed to the slight discomfort of a tie or pantyhose), men would say the designers must be insane to think they would buy them. And they'd be right, and that's why you don't see such fashions. I wish women would do the same and not be labeled as unfashionable geeks.
Remember Me
(1,532 posts)and here are my notes about it:
(re women's Fashion magazine and advertising poses, which show women as subordinate -- or they would be subordinate poses except that they show powerful women -- Hollywood stars -- who know they are controlling the male gaze.)
http://www.uvm.edu/~tstreete/powerpose/index.html
The problem is, however, that most women make less money and have less power than most men, and the message that goes out to women without power is that to get some, you need to gain control of a male view of women -- which means to get power through male power, rather than on your own.
This is where the theory of the male gaze becomes important. John Berger once noted, "Men 'act' and women 'appear.' Men look at women. Women watch themselves being looked at." (Ways of Seeing , p. 47)
...There is a long tradition in Western art of representing men as viewers, and women as viewed. It continues in modern advertising.
... (again, in Berger's words), "Women watch themselves being looked at." Women are acculturated to look at themselves through the eyes of an imagined man because the ideal spectator is always assumed to be male. As a result, "Female models in ads addressed to women 'treat the lens as a substitute for the eye of an imaginary male onlooker' (Paul Messaris).
... The question of who has power and wealth, and how this woman is gaining access to it, needs not be asked: women get power from men by using their looks.
http://www.uvm.edu/~tstreete/powerpose/power.html
Links to other material: http://www.uvm.edu/~tstreete/powerpose/links.html
Read excerpt from Wanting to be Wanted, by Polly Young-Eisendrath, PhD, a psychoanalyst
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0609805304/ref=sib_fs_top/105-7769261-0103624?ie=UTF8&p=S00M&checkSum=A2hQvwtmWT9EnxX4S4eSTMCFYzpftAHRVwTxDD9Nit4%3D#reader-link
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Edited to add bold above, and to say that I wonder what would happen -- to fashion, to advertising, to our personal power, to us as individual female humans -- if we weren't trained to see OURSELVES and each other through the imagined male gaze? What if, instead, we were free to define beauty and well-being purely for ourselves?
redqueen
(115,172 posts)I think it starts with us, and with our daughters. After a point they will turn to peers more than family, so the foundation - the habit of rejecting the beauty trap - has to be well established early in life.
starspunch78
(9 posts)While I agree that the male gaze and men luring at woman is a manifestation of the patriarchy, there are ways that women navigate this so that dress can be a space for creativity and even subtle forms of irreverance. Dressing for the day is something that everyone does, and when you open your closet, you have a barrage of choices to convey a certain message. While most of the time choices are done to reinforce gender normative ideas, it can also re-imagine a woman's perception of herself in the world. I found this to be a fascinating book about this topic:
http://books.google.com/books/about/The_grace_of_four_moons.html?id=9eiBAAAAMAAJ
i was a cathar
(22 posts)