Anyone want to talk about cheerleaders?

[redqueen]

Obamanut2012 was the only person I saw who hit at the real issue with cheerleading in the NFL. It isn't cheerleading, its a T&A show.

Actual cheerleaders don't dress in a sexualized manner. Actual cheerleads aren't chosen based on their looks. Actual cheerleaders are both male and female.

It confuses me why anyone wouldn't notice that what passes for cheerleading in the NFL is just pandering to knuckledraggers who want the T&A they feel so pathetically entitled to.

[ZombieHorde]

1. Apparently, sexism is OK if sports is involved.

Before today, I thought this was just a conservative thing.

[redqueen]

2. Oh I learned this years ago.

When I dared to praise football in the UK for not pandering to those types, at least not on the pitch. I was told in no uncertain terms how horrible it was of me to dare criticize the T&A. That was the end of my regular visits to the Sports forum.

[seabeyond]

8. i have been told, it absolutely is allowed. that is it. so when another complains about racism,

homophobia or any other 'sms, look to what is allowed in the sports forum. standards for civility is shot to hell.

one cannot say and think to get away with it that one ism is ok, and not the rest.

[obamanut2012]

23. Yeah, some of these threads have been "enlightening"

Including some of the Sports threads I've read.

[backtoblue]

3. Oh, yes. Especially when very young girls are following suit

School dress codes for shorts and skirts were pretty conservative at my high school, but the cheerleader's skirts were so short you could see their drawers everytime they bent over.

The sexualization of females is disgusting and what's baffling is their own willingness to be the poster models and enablers of misogyny. It seemed like they relished the attention that their sexy atire brought them.

[redqueen]

4. It doesn't surprise me.

Most women champion this. They sell the beauty trap to their own daughters. And of course we have the media and most men also reinforcing the idea that women\'s power lies in their sexuality, looks, and youth.

I\'m not saying that caring about looking nice is bad of course, but I think we all know the difference between looking nice and sexualization.

[Whisp]

5. of course.

those young women are just little tidbit side dishes for those brawny he-men after they dine on their aggression.

[seabeyond]

9. pieces as one of the men told me. they are pieces. they are only interested in the pieces

and why shouldnt they. they are men, after all.

[redqueen]

10. It's laughable that anyone would try to call it a sport.

Real cheerleading, sure. The stuff in the NFL and NBA and now the MLS too (alas)... not even close.

[justiceischeap]

6. NFL Cheerleaders--shocking information

I've been to one NFL game as an adult (Philadelphia Eagles) and I was shocked to learn that there are tons of cheerleaders at the game. They rotate them so you aren't staring at the same one's the entire game. Also, if I recall correctly, they had male cheerleaders too; they just aren't shown on TV (and that could be a team by team decision--having male cheerleaders). The following NFL teams don't have cheerleaders: Chicago Bears, Cleveland Browns, New York Giants, Detroit Lions, Green Bay Packers, and the Pittsburgh Steelers.

We've come a long way from the first official NFL cheerleaders in 1954 (Baltimore Colts):


I think that Dallas is the first team to go "sexy" with the cheerleaders but I'm not 100% on that. Here's a good link that has sorta before/after photos of NFL cheerleaders.
http://www.businessinsider.com/football-cheerleader-photos-2011-10?op=1

I also agree it's a T&A show but a lot of them are college students so it helps get them through school... I'm torn on my feelings. I hate that they're sexualized but on the other hand... does that make me a misogynist?

[redqueen]

11. I've never seen a male cheerleader for a pro sports team.

I've seen obese men featured as dancers though. I'll have to look up the NFL's male cheerleaders, that is surprising.

As for paying for school, it is every woman's choice whether or not to trade / exploit her sexuality for money. I think it works counter to the effort to promote the concept of women as people and not objects, though.

[justiceischeap]

13. I agree about the whole objects vs. people line of thinking

but I almost always am conflicted about certain things like this. On one hand, I think it's great if a woman wants to use her sexuality (and not be ashamed of it) to earn money if it's her choice. On the other hand, I hate how that trickles down to other women who don't want to be viewed as playthings for men.

I also have the same contrast when it comes to the slave labor in China and India. On one hand, the women that work in those factories are making a living where they may not otherwise but they should get better pay but some pay is better than none... argh!

[seabeyond]

15. why are men not performing and why do men have an issue with men performing. that gives you your

answer.

[redqueen]

16. Yeah, I am against sweatshops as well.

I found some men called the Ravens' stunt team. Is that what you were talking about?

Also, how do you think male fans would react to seeing male cheerleaders who were as sexualized as the female ones? I think that men would find it distasteful and objectionable, because unlike women they're not socialized to see and accept themselves as the sex class.

[justiceischeap]

17. I would expect a lot of derogatory gay jokes.

I found the same info as you. Apparently Green Bay uses a local university that has a stunt team as well. So, two teams that appear to have them.

They wouldn't like it one bit but, believe it or not, there are quite a few women that go to games, so they would enjoy it.

[redqueen]

19. I think most women wouldn't notice or care.

Just as we aren't so gaga about male strippers.

[seabeyond]

37. our sexual identity is not wrapped up around subjugating the other gender sexually. that is the

difference by the cultural conditioning of the two sexuality. men learn tht their sexuality is dependent on degrading, dehumanizing, subjugating females in a sexul manner. that is indicative to many men feeling like a .... man.

women are not in the same position. quite the reverse. we are taught our sexuality is wrapped up in being dehumanized.

[redqueen]

56. Domination,

that's what it seems to boil down to, for me.

There is something about being superior, in charge, the boss, etc. It isn't just in our sexuality but the way we are socialized to relate to other people in general. Women are less heirarchical.

[obamanut2012]

24. Only ONE pro team has male cheerleaders

The Baltimore Ravens.

Philadelphia's "cheerleaders" are just as bad as Dallas', as are most NBA squads.

[seabeyond]

7. i told my boys when they put bare chest gorgeous men in the stands with tight shorts showing off

their package for 4, 5 hours gyrating in my face, i would be ok with the cowboy stadium. do you know they have the women thru out the stands to entertain the men thru out the game. the women sit there uncomfortable as the men are entertained. just give the gals a pole. no more or less.

imagine the men having a beefcake stand in front of them for hours showing off their well hung crotch and come back to me how it is nothing.

these women also get very little money, with jerry jones pimping them in all manners to make a buck. same old story for women.

[redqueen]

12. Yeah, I wonder if male cheerleaders for the NFL

are ripped, well hung, and wear skimpy sexy barely-there outfits. I doubt it.

I didn't know that about the cowboys. Awful. I wonder why so many women consider this acceptable.

[seabeyond]

14. of course they are not. but it did make my boys think... about sittin, watching and how comfortable

they would be under the same scenario.

[redqueen]

18. Many women are comfortable with objectification

and sexualization. So they help to sustain the environment where its accepted and socially rewarded. It is going to take a long time to change it. Those of us who aren't ok with it have to start speaking up, and not letting one group set the rules. I am so glad that this nonsense hasn't caught on in the Premiership. Sadly, soccer here seems to be taking its cues from south of the border. Have you seen any tv shows from there? Not the kind of representation of women I consider progressive.

[seabeyond]

20. and get beat up, time and time and time again. my guys want me to get off

Last edited Fri Jan 6, 2012, 01:17 AM - Edit history (1)

and see it no more.

they get it.

isnt that enough.

well, no.

[laconicsax]

21. The NFL has the T&A show to keep men from leaving/changing the channel.

American football is fucking boring.

[redqueen]

25. I agree.

Too much time between plays, or used for advertising. And even more T&A in the ads. I don't know how people enjoy it.

[obamanut2012]

22. Thanks for getting what I was saying!

I do watch that Dallas Cowboy Cheerleader reality show in a trainwreck way. It's so awful.

As an aside, most cheerleaders for NFL teams either get paid NOTHING or get paid very, very little.

I had to back out of that thread, I was getting so angry.

Now, many HS and college cheerleaders ARE real athletes, and compete, and usually have both genders on the team. It's still too appearance-oriented, but...

[redqueen]

26. Thanks for saying it.

I hope more people start speaking up about their issues with the constant sexual objectification of women.

I agree about actual cheerleaders. They are actually participating in an actual sport and are actual athletes.

[seabeyond]

27. what bothers me more than the sexism, is bullying has been approved on du

by those with a little power and all powerful. those threads in sports are about shutting women up. poke the bear, he goes into a rage and puts up another naked picture. bullying plain and simple and all allwed it to stand. most all softened the words, creating the bully as the victim. we wonder how today, recognizing bullying and see the damage, how a bully can get away with it. the voices not only sanctioned the bully, but some cheered the bully on.

stfu or another picture goes up.

when i realized last night, this has truly been sanctioned on du, i felt a bit sick. not feeling great about it this morning. that thread so many of us were in about the 15 yr old girl on the net, our cartoon in this forum about girls/women experience on the net, we had an exact example of this here on du.

dont ever believe, we are any better.

the bully wins and is approved, cheered, allowed

[obamanut2012]

28. Cosign this post

+1 seabeyond!

[seabeyond]

29. i am so sad, that we can not be better than this. nt

[redqueen]

30. Same as it ever was.

It's always been the case that misogynist crap is socially approved. DU has never been any different than any other space. At least here many women don't approve of it. In most places they fall more in line with society (overwhelmingly accept it, and join in).

[seabeyond]

31. moderators helped mostly. they were the hammer for the voice of the few. the voice of the few

no longer have the hammer, or any other means to be heard.

[redqueen]

34. I didn't notice.

I suppose it might be different now but I don't notice much difference.

One thing I like about the jury system is it makes these things obvious and forces people to see how bad it is.

[seabeyond]

35. but it isnt. i did a thread. showed two jury saying sports was different. there was no outrage

people accept it. mens room. that stuff belongs there. tis ok.

[redqueen]

39. They always have.

At least that's how it seems to me.

That forum was always subject to different rules even under the old system. It was just 'understood'. Now that juries are involved and people are bothering to care, its an issue. None of this stuff was complained about on the old board. Or not very often, and when it was, not much was done.

The only difference now is that its more noticeable. IMO anyway.

[seabeyond]

43. interesting.... thank you for that perspective. nt

[obamanut2012]

32. I have been impressed most women here disapprove

Not like in "real life," where so many want t0 seem like they don't mind the whole "lad's mags" mentality.

[seabeyond]

33. i dont see it. i see way too many women want to be liked by the man

lookie at me, see i dont care, be my friend please.

maybe i am just seeing glass half full perspective and generally i am the other way around, but i read a woman poster just yesterday saying, even if against du rules would leave alone so others see. really? that thinking blows my mind. how does a person accomplish a damn thing with tht type of thinking. i do not get it at all.

[redqueen]

36. Indoctrination works.

Go on just about any other forum or online space and it will be much more like what you're referring to in real life.

The only exceptions are feminist sites or subforums. And on many boards even the women's subforums are just as bad, and not just US sites either.

It is truly distressing.

[obamanut2012]

45. Wow -- even women's subforums?

Insane.

[MadrasT]

41. I have to admit

It didn't used to bother me as much as it does now. (Or at least I didn't let on, I am not sure which?)

At one time (not so long ago) I was one of the ones who shrugged my shoulders and said "boys will be boys" and laughed it off.

Now it's like somebody hit me over the head with a rock and I am all "WTF was I THINKING??!!!???!"

I think maybe I was trying to act less offended than I really am... maybe so men would like me more? (Because I was "cool" about it?)

I have never been a "girly girl" myself, but I excused the sexualization of other women.

F*CK THAT. NO MORE.

[redqueen]

42. I used to think it wasn't a problem.

At all. I thought it was all good, sexy fun.

Then one day a couple of years ago a brogressive let slip that he had more respect for the madonnas than the whores. On that day my eyes were opened.

Women cannot engage in good sexy fun with men while the society we live in is still so unbelievably biased against women.

As long as women are demonized, abused, harassed, or in any way mistreated for daring to be (gasp) actual human beings rather than just madonnas or whores... and as long as women are indoctrinated into the beauty/youth/sexuality brainwashing which teaches us that that is our paramount value as things... that our sexuality is a commodities to be traded like any other... as long as there is so much hatred of and violence against women by the men who claim to love them ... all such interactions are far too fraught with baggage to trust as involving genuine respect.

Sorry, babbling.

[seabeyond]

46. "he had more respect for the madonnas than the whores." this is what makes me lmfao

when it is about a man using a stripper or prostitute you hear them proclaim all this respect for her right to do.

reality is and we know, they think of these PEOPLE as things and have NO respect for them. that is the absurdity about it that i continually try to call out. they are USING, and are dominant, and control adn hold out the money and say, degrade yourself a bet more for my entertainment and i will give you a buck.

what person is going to respect that

empathize, understand, accept, yes. but respect? aint gonna happen.

[obamanut2012]

47. GREAT post!

[seabeyond]

44. but see, i understand because i use to, too. then we grow up and say WTF.... the men are outraged

saying but but but... i am suppose to get to do this and you are suppose to stfu. which pisses me off more, today.

when we are young, we are conditioned readily. we are just exploring our sexuality. we are inexperienced and unsure. and clever men, we have had men tell us repeatedly if you dare say anything you are anti sex, pearl clutcher, asexual, anti sex, ugly, jealous and it goes on and on. what young woman isn't going to say, that is not me. the difference, get older and it is a huge, fuck you....

i hear what you say. but more,i really appreciate you coming on this thread and telling us your experience. it is so very fuckin important.

thanks.

[MadrasT]

38. They drive me nuts

I hate NFL cheerleaders and everything they represent.

Some folks up-thread speculated that maybe it was OK because they do it for the money, and if they choose to earn a living that way, then it's OK. But actually, they only make about $50 per game (based on stats I found for the Dallas Cowboys and the Atlanta Falcons earlier this year when I was curious).

So it isn't about the money... which makes it even worse for me. The income can't even cover their expenses.

Maybe there are additional earning opportunities for "special appearances", or they are hoping to break into modeling or something else?

I want to say "it's their choice so I guess it's OK", but it still upsets me because I don't like how they represent the female gender to the rest of the world.

I am really torn because I don't like to criticize what another woman chooses to do with her life... but yeah, NFL cheerleaders make me nuts.

It confuses me why anyone wouldn't notice that what passes for cheerleading in the NFL is just pandering to knuckledraggers who want the T&A they feel so pathetically entitled to.

It confuses me too. It confuses me more when I hear what I consider to be "enlightened men" making excuses for it.

[redqueen]

40. I think most are hoping for a break.

Into modeling or acting or some kind of career where they can cash in on their looks before its too late.

We have to fight the media's constant barrage of images which convey the idea that what a woman looks like is the most important thing about her. The fact that so many girls absorb this message so young is a serious problem. It is stunting our progress as a society.

[seabeyond]

50. the girls/women are being pimped. by men. once again. no different. sell sexuality

get little of the money and make tons for the men.

[mzteris]

61. hoping to get noticed by the jocks

and hoping that that one-night stand parlays into something more permanent. Or maybe just a baby-money-maker. . .

[justiceischeap]

62. I was going to suggest this too

I wouldn't be surprised if there were some young women on the squads that hope to catch a pro. I think that says more about women than being an actual cheerleader.

[mzteris]

64. it means more about what these particular women

have been taught about themselves. . . that they are a piece of meat to be advertised and sold to the highest bidder. Rough usage in the meantime, well, part of the price to be paid.

[redqueen]

71. Exactly, they've bought the lies about both sexes.

Men are for money, and women are for sex. Lovely.

[obamanut2012]

66. They aren't allowed to date players

Or go out with them socially in any way.

Not being contrarian!

[mzteris]

68. uh-huh. . .

yeah, right, sure. . . I really believe that one.

[obamanut2012]

70. I know Dallas terminates them immediately if they do so

They check their Facebook pages and everything, and they narc on one another.

Of course, the players don't get in any trouble.

[seabeyond]

48. how i look at it, because i had been in a position where i had to decide if i wanted to step over

the line for monetary gain, at a young age. how i see it is what an individual does for self preservation, survival is their choice and ok. it is theirs to figure out. it is not my place to pass judgment. BUT, reality also exists and i wont wrap it up in a pretty bow. leaving aside the personal choice we have to be honest how these many individual choices effect the women as a whole. it is not an exercise in guilt. it is about honesty and reality adn not being afraid of that. truth really does set us free. we can acknowledge a truth while recognizing circumstances that allow an individual to make the choice they do.

it is not about the battle between sex workers and non sex workers. but i am not going to participate in it as a lie.

[obamanut2012]

49. They don't get paid for special appearance

And will be fired and/or fined for taking money "under the table" for anything like that. They can have other jobs, like retail or something, and have to. They also have to pay for all their training (ie they have to take dance lessons, etc, out of work, at approved studios, and pay for it themselves). They pay for all the styling they have to have, too (pedis, spray tans, haircuts, etc.). They also check their Facebook pages,e tc., and can be fired for "moral issues." I laugh at this, because of all the NFL football player scandals (rape, murder, drugs, dog fighting, etc.).

The Dallas cheerleaders used to get paid NOTHING. I'm surprised they are giving them $50 now.

Many of these girls dream of this from when they are little kids, and their families encourage them to skip college, etc. to do this.

Oh! The older cheerleaders have to compete to keep their jobs every year, against the new crop ie younger girls.

You have to watch that Dallas Cheerleaders reality show. It's crazy.

[seabeyond]

51. they are being pimped using their sexuality and the men have the audacity to discuss morality?

fuckin ..... wow.

[obamanut2012]

52. Yup, but it gets worse!

The Dallas cheerleaders are treated this way, and judged like a virgin on auction at an antebellum New Orleans brother by.... ready for it?????

TWO WOMEN!!!!!!!!!

Kelli Finglass and Judy Trammell! Both former cheerleaders.

They are crazy mean girls. They even teach the girls to walk-dance on tiptoe because it's sexy.

The other cheerleading/dance groups are just as bad.

[seabeyond]

53. we see plenty, women dont have a problem selling out. nt

[redqueen]

54. Posting this again.

Because I agree with it.

"Beauty pageant women, Sports Illustrated women, and women who work for Aaron Spelling: They are to me as Uncle Tom is to the black man... They are such Stepin Fetchit sell-outs."
Janeane Garofalo.

[Scout]

55. how come there are NO cheerleaders for women's sports??? i've not ever seen (perhaps i'm sheltered,

but i don't think so) male or female cheerleaders for women athletes...

and of course NONE of the sycophantic worship of the girls in the high school athletics: locker decorating, making cookies, remembering their birthdays, etc.

[redqueen]

57. Good question

I haven't ever seen cheerleaders for women's teams either.

[obamanut2012]

58. Exactly!

Even when the girls' team is a state champ team.

[justiceischeap]

63. My high school, the women's bball team had cheerleaders.

I think it depends on the school but women's sports don't get the money or attention men's do. I'm shocked the WNBA is still going.

[mzteris]

60. I despise the concept.

If they want to be gymnasts, then be a damn gymnast. (If I hear "they're so athletic" "it's a sport" one more time I'm going to puke!) And just because they start adding boys to the mix in college doesn't mean a damn thing either.

It IS about T&A. Having the girls "available" for the jocks - if you know what I mean.

I always told my daughter, "don't stand around looking pretty and cheering for a bunch of dumb jocks, DO SOMETHING so other people are cheering FOR YOU!"

[redqueen]

72. Same here.

Girls as decorations... and nobody sees a problem with this? Really?

[iverglas]

65. is this connected

with a post I see in the Sports group?

Do a search on that poster's name ...

[obamanut2012]

67. And one or two threads

In H & M.

[iverglas]

69. ah, okay

I'm getting it. I live a pretty sheltered live around here ...

[redqueen]

73. Yep.

I saw a thread asking about the rules in the Sports forum, and it mentioned a thread in there, so I checked it out. I was kinda shocked that out of everyone commenting on the situation, only one had pointed out that it really isn't anything to do with sports at all. It's T&A for some of the fans, and that's it.