Any good green ideas on what to do about frozen drain pipe for washing machine?

[IrishAyes]

After I moved here 8 years ago, one of the first things I had done was just about all the extra insulation there was room for. The walls have blown in insulation.

However, on rare occasions the washing machine drain pipe will freeze over after a long spell of near zero weather. I've always kept thermometers around the house, and the utility room stays at about 50 degrees all winter. Ground water used to come up under the house - very high water table here - but I had a drain installed there and we have to have massive rains for anything to accumulate under the crawl space in that one place at all.

However, the danged drain in the laundry room is stopped up again! I treated it with baking soda and vinegar over an hour ago with no luck. I've always been a little afraid of heat tape since it's been known to fail and start a fire. There's zero chance of the drain plugging up for any reason except an ice ball somewhere, because I keep a strainer on the washing machine's drain hose. Also, every faucet in the house goes on slow drip when it's 20 degrees outside or worse, and of course all the cabinet doors are propped open all winter. (No kids.) Right now the faucets have been on drip for about a week, 24-hours.

Maybe I'm just being too impatient. But does anyone else have reasonably safe ideas how to handle this? I simply won't use caustic drain cleaners, especially when it's just ice. If necessary I'll pour boiling water down there but I don't like carrying it back there because if I spilled it on myself....

[Warpy]

1. In this case, the heat tape is all that will do it

unless you want to stand there for the next three days with a hair dryer.

Plug the heat tape in when you get up in the morning and unplug it when you go to bed at night. That way, if anything goes awry you'll notice it quickly because you'll be awake.

[IrishAyes]

3. I've resisted for years, but feel my resolve fading fast.

Maybe if I just plugged it in on those rare occasions only?

Do you think it matters if heat tape has to go next to the wall? Because they crammed the exit pipe pretty close. If the tape's flexible enough, maybe I could just run a few loops up and down the opposite side of the pipe instead of going around it.

One thing's for sure; even if it only happens once or twice every few years, this is getting ollllld.

[beac]

2. I don't have any advice on the drain but wonder if you could explain

leaving the cabinet doors open. Which cabinets and why?

I recently moved to a much colder climate and am still learning the ropes (hello, exterior hose tap insulating cover!)

And thanks for reminder to drip the faucets tonight!

[IrishAyes]

4. Well, even with great insulation, if cabinet doors are shut, the interior will be colder than the

room. This only matters if there are pipes involved of course. No need to worry about dish cabinets! I even prop the dishwasher door open a crack at night in winter. Of course you'll have a lot less trouble if you heat your house the way so many people do, til it resembles a sauna. But then that's bad for your health. Cold houses breed fewer germs. My son refused to wear long sleeves indoors or out unless temps fell to 55, and even then he didn't have goose bumps. He was skinny, too. So it wasn't personal insulation. More likely good circulation.

I'd highly suggest you forego one popular rural method: piling straw around the perimeter of the house. Yes, it helps with insulation but it also attracts all sorts of critters. Not worth it. Fire hazard too. Mold, etc.

One thing you might want to invest in for outdoor faucets; those devices that prevent the water from being sucked back into the pipes as you're turning off the faucet. Maybe it's overkill, but it can't hurt either. Good for you, remembering to insulate the outdoor faucets.

Hope you enjoy colder climes. It's heat that I can't take. You can always put on enough clothes to be warm w/o getting arrested...

[beac]

8. We definitely aren't overheaters!

62-65 in the main part of the house and the back bedroom (separate thermostat) at 55 (mr beac likes it COLD when he sleeps and I just tuck my freezing feet under his legs )

Glad to know I can leave my cold dish cabinets closed. But I will crack open the one under the sink. (No dishwasher here.)

We aren't rural enough for the straw method but it is supposed to be down to ONE later this week.

And yes, I am the human onion when it comes to layers.

[IrishAyes]

12. Since you say you're new to colder climes,

may I invite your further attention to posts #9 and 10? Also, don't forget to open any bathroom vanity doors that conceal pipes.

When I lived off grid w/o solar, I did manage to crack some fine china in the cabinet, but that was only because nearly all heavy winter living indoors took place within 10 feet of the pot belly stove. On the opposite side of the 20x15' room, it was brutal. Glad I had the experience, but it's untenable long term.

[X_Digger]

5. Yeah, heat tape seems to be most likely bet.

Have a teapot handy? That might be one way of safely transporting hot water (though there's no way to be sure that the ice clog is close enough for the hot water to dislodge it.)

[IrishAyes]

6. Along with everything else, since I can poke a broom handle all the way down the part of the drain

pipe that I can see, I'm positive the ice ball is under the house. And we're going down to 0 degrees tonight. If worse comes to worse, I'll go the temporary route and use a tall plastic bin, then bail it out. At least I don't have to worry about burst pipes under the house. This has apparently been going on for years. It would cost a small fortune to insulate that shallow crawl space.

Before I bought this fixer house, the rear half did have the original brick foundation replaced with concrete. Hopefully in the next year or so I can do the same for the front half - not that it needs it exactly, but I'd feel better. The house was inspected about 4 years ago so I could get an FDA home improvement loan, and they didn't find any current foundation problems. I mention this because I wonder if it would benefit the problem with the pipes. My FDA loan payments are quite low, but I was afraid to load it anymore than I could help. Two things scare me: conservatives and debt.

[X_Digger]

7. Well, rather than trying to insulate the whole crawlspace, you could..

Get some of that insulating wrap and focus on the drain from the washer to the ground. (Of course I'm assuming that there's a significant run of pipe horizontally, above ground.

You might have to hit a plumbing supply store to find it, rather than your local big box home center, though.

[IrishAyes]

9. That's a fantastic idea. Could you recommend someone desperate enough for $ to

crawl into such a tight space that it will hardly accept a human body, and then squirm 10-12 feet over to where the pipes are? So far I haven't found anyone. The bigger contractors don't want little jobs, and the handymen are afraid of that one, not surprisingly. I'm certainly not going to do it, so I can't blame them. At first I couldn't get anyone to redo the roof either, because 'Alpine' only scratches the surface of that thing, and this is a 2 storey. But once I found some Amish, they had no problems. They don't want to crawl under my house either, though.

Maybe next spring or summer I can afford the front half concreted in case that will help. This is one of the few things about winter that I don't like. Normally I happiest when icycles hang off the end of my nose. Haven't had a cold in many years.

Can't help wondering about heat tapes anyway: with the ice ball being so far away from where the exit pipe is reachable, would heat tapes still do any good? God forgive me, but I'm almost ready to think about the green/nontoxic anti-freeze.

Well, so far the baking soda/vinegar has always worked after a day or two.

[X_Digger]

10. Well, you'd have to get someone up under there to do the heat tape, too.

When you use heat tape on plastic pipe, an old plumber's trick is to wrap the pipe in aluminum foil before the tape- it distributes the heat without scorching or deforming the pipe.

First place to heat up would be the trap, where there's always standing water.

If that doesn't do it, you'd want to look for a sag or dip in the drain pipe- that's the next likely place.

[IrishAyes]

11. I was about to write a potential apology if my comment might've sounded snippy.

Wasn't meant that way. But thank you very much for the plumber's trick with aluminum. I'd never have thunk of it on my own.

Until I do find someone desperate enough to squiggle into the crawl space to do it THAT WAY, however, another stopgap measure occurred to me last night. This problem only occurs when it's been near zero for several days in a row. And I was afraid to try carrying hot water back to the laundry room.

DUH! At last my brain clicked into gear enough for this to happen: why not turn the hot water heater up to near boiling, then draw 1 or 2 gallons into the washer and send super hot water down the pipe that way? Safe, no touching.

This morning the baking soda and vinegar had finally done most of the work. I stood there with my hand on the washer control knob, ready to shut it off at an instant, and then sent the hot water through a cup or so at a time until the blockage was entirely removed. And got caught up on all the laundry I could think of immediately.

This severe weather is expected to continue at least another week w/o a break. Therefore a new part of my routine morning and night will be to send at least a gallon of water down the exit pipe and try to keep it clear.

I don't have a lot of $ but at this point I'm more than willing to pay a premium to hornswoggle - I mean, convince - someone to do the complete job as you describe. My goal is to fix this old house as completely as possible in a most practical and effective manner so I can age in place. It would take a team of wild horses to get me out of here alive. Cosmetic repairs come last, except for the exterior which is now pretty much done.

[X_Digger]

13. No worries! I hate crawlspaces too, hehe.

I remember you mentioning that it was an old victorian that you'd re-done from top to bottom, so I bet it'd be the same for me, if I were in such a vintage home.

And congrats on getting it thawed!

The only problem I could think of with the super hot water is if you have a plastic tub in the washing machine. I know that PVC pipe could handle it, but I don't know washing machine construction / standards.

[IrishAyes]

15. For some unfathomable reason, I've always managed to avoid deliberately being

pennywise and pound foolish. Since I expect that washer to last at least 12-15 years, it has a stainless steel tub. I'll cut corners and take gently used in a lot of things, but nothing with a motor.

But here's a cockamamie idea that I recommend (for legal reasons) against others using: I don't know exactly when that ice ball might happen until the exit pipe starts to overflow. That's why in winter I always make sure to observe the first emptying. But when it does happen, of course the exit pipe is full almost to the top. My latest scheme, until I can get the heat tape and/or a non-claustrophobic contractor, is - ta da! - a simple little immersion heater. The kind travelers use to heat water in a coffee cup. Drop that little sucker into the pipe and hold it there until the water heats up enough to melt the ice jam. Necessity being the mother of invention and all that.

I'd rather not even use baking soda and vinegar if possible, because this was the first house in the area to have indoor plumbing; my plumbing's connected to a city main over 2 blocks away. In the center of the street in front of the house, there's what amounts to a buried cesspool, and one other house is attached to it. If there was any way to persuade them to pay for their own connection to the city main that I hope runs along the street, I would; I'd even pay them a modest sum to defray the cost. But the people who live in that other house are not the sort to oblige. Let's leave it at that.

The only reason I'd love to entice them away is because a lot of people don't treat cesspools/septic systems well. When I bought this place, one of the first things I had to do was have a town crew locate stuff for me, and the neighbor who lived there then did pay for half the cost of a pump out. Who knows when if ever it had been cleaned in the 80 or so years it has probably been there. Maybe there'll never be another problem since I feed it yeast every single month. But if the other people are over there pouring grease down the drain and who knows what else, I can't be sure.

It could be worse, of course. Town fathers told me a lot of plumbing runs under someone else's house! due to the patchwork gradual development around here.

Proof positive that it takes a crazy person to love old houses. When I first had an electrician out here, he laughed and said nothing in my house was straight or level anymore. But not to worry, it'll be the last one in town to fall down too.

[X_Digger]

16. Another alternative, though probably slower, would be a submersible aquarium heater.

They only heat up to ~100 degrees maximum, but it might be worth a try.

You'd want a small one, say 50w, both due to their short size and energy consumption.

[IrishAyes]

18. That would be safer than an immersion heater, wouldn't it?

[X_Digger]

19. Yup, sure would.

Now if the trap isn't right under the floor, it might not do much good- it doesn't heat up air very well.

You'd also want to get one with a plastic body, rather than glass- that way there's no chance of it cracking if it does end up in a dry spot.

[jeff47]

14. You should only have to worry about the trap.

Moving water won't freeze until you get to extremely low temperatures (Waaaaay below zero). So water flowing through the pipes in your crawlspace should just keep going to the sewer. As long as you don't have a sag in your drain line, you should not get any freezing there.

So what you have to worry about is water in the trap freezing, since that's the only place water stands still. I'm guessing the trap is in the crawlspace, so it's cold and can freeze.

The best solution is to rip open the wall, and move the trap from the crawlspace into the wall. That way the trap will be 50 degrees like the rest of the utility room and it will never freeze. If you don't want to do that, all you can really do is insulate the trap and apply something like heat tape to it.

In the short run, pouring very hot water down the pipe should melt the ice in the trap. Start the washing machine on "hot", let it fill a little, then turn the knob to drain or spin. Be ready to stop the washer so that it does not flood the room.

You should not need the water to be near boiling - even if the initial blast of hot is not sufficient to melt the ice, you will end up with room-temperature water sitting on top of the ice. That should get enough heat down to the ice to melt it.

[IrishAyes]

17. Thanks for all that great info. As you can imagine, I'm no expert. But I love to learn.

When it comes time to hire a contractor to pour a new cement foundation under the front half of the house - the back half's already done - I'll get a bid on doing as you say. If possible, I'll have the trap moved. That might take another year or two even for me to save up enough $. Cash always gets a better deal. Meanwhile, I've been truly blessed by all the help people have offered me. Couldn't live w/o DUers!

[jeff47]

20. One thing you can do temporarily

Is pour RV antifreeze into the drain pipe when it is going to get really cold. That'll prevent the trap from freezing. Add new antifreeze after you're done using the washer if it is still cold.

Make sure you use the RV type, and not the normal "Car" type. The car type is toxic and can't be dumped into the sewer.

[IrishAyes]

21. I'd heard of nontoxic 'natural' car antifreeze but didn't know RV antifreeze was nontoxic.

That would be easier for me to locate around here. To save just in case of absolute emergency.

[jeff47]

22. Yep, it's propylene glycol instead of ethylene glycol. (nt)