Gah. When it rains it pours. and then some.

[quakerboy]

This is more a rant than a specific request, though if anyone has insight, I am more than happy to pick your brain for it.

So.. last night, baking some burgers in the oven. Seems to be taking a little longer than it should. And the little thermometer that hangs from the rack says approx 150, even though the upper thing says 350. So I drop the probe for our electric thermometer on the tray. It says 190. Huh. So I start an internal quiz about whether I am ready/confidant enough to attempt to diagnose and fix an oven myself, while checking the prices of new ovens online. Seeing as the ceramic cooktop was damaged when we moved in, I wouldn't feel bad about a new one, excepting the trying to pay for one while broke part. I wonder how much plasma I would have to donate to get a new oven?

But then the burgers are done, somehow, anyway. And a second round cook in normal time. Later, my wife turns it up to 500, just to see what happens. the hanging thermometer reads about 250. The probe jumps toward 350, then "high". So maybe the hanging thermometer is just broken. It did go through a self cleaning cycle, so that's probable, and a much cheaper fix. So, unless we notice future problems, that seems to have resolved itself.

This morning, I wake to a note on the bathroom mirror. "Do not shower. Water is dripping from the kitchen ceiling. Note on your desk". Oh yay. Sure enough, water is dripping from the light fixture. Relevant to showers, since the bathroom is directly over the kitchen.

We ran into this before, when we first moved in. Called a plumber in a panic, and he determined that water was coming down the shower wall, along the back of the tub, over the edge to the floor, and into a previously unnoticed crack between the wall and the tub, covered loosely by plastic edging. So we bought the little $5 plastic tub corner thingies, sprayed down a lot of antimold spray, and waited for things to dry. In the year since, there has been no sign of trouble.

So, not sure what happened this time. 2 hours later, its still dripping. Noone's using water upstairs. It is raining, but why would that come through right there, and only there. Just in case, we did try food coloring in the two second most likely culprits(toilet and tub), but the water is still coming through clear. So maybe my sister just managed to spaz and dump a few bucketfuls of water outside the tub somehow. It did appear damp at the hole, though none of the pooling that the plumber pointed out last time. For now, the light fixture comes down, the space is as opened as we can, while we wait for it to dry and hope its not actually a plumbing issue.

To take the light fixture off, I had to shut off the power to the kitchen lights. Which meant killing all power to the downstairs, given how the place is wired. Oops, killed my computer in the middle of coming to visit DU. Also, turned off the fridge. 3 wire nuts later, maybe 2 minutes time, I flip the breaker back on. The fridge reads 52 degrees. This is not not the normal temperature. Its usually set at 38. would 3 minutes off, unopened, really raise it 14 degrees? Its supposed to be pretty high efficiency, and its power use is pretty low, when I checked it last. It seems to be back to normal, an hour later. Is my fridge dying?

Im just waiting to see what comes next. The microwave? Maybe a toilet can start leaking. Or a rock through a window?

[jeff47]

1. It's leaking from the supply lines

Your shower is leaking from the lines that bring water to the shower, or from the shower valve. It's not going to stop leaking until someone fixes it. Depending on how your house is plumbed, there may be a shut-off you can use to turn off just the shower. Your only other alternative is to shut off the water to the whole house.

As for the fridge, that shouldn't have heated up that much. Defrosting cycles in freezers can heat the compartment some, but this is the fridge. Doesn't mean it's about to die, but it is odd. Should probably check it every so often.

[quakerboy]

2. I don't think so

It did this exact thing over a year ago. Within half a day, it stopped dripping. That was when the plumber said it was due to water going over the edge of the tub. And once that avenue of water was blocked, we didnt see it anymore. Until today.

And it has stopped dripping completely again. Which would strongly seem to argue against it being a leak from the incoming water.

I've been playing with it a bit, to see if I can learn anything. with the aid of food coloring, I dumped blue water down tub, and red in the toilet. No sign of either color or a continuing of the leak.

This would seem to leave only two possibilities. Either my sister flailed and got water outside the tub, or water is leaking from the outside world. I dyed some rubbing alcohol green and poured it down the hole beside the tub, as I didn't want to just put more water in an already potentially mold prone space. No sign of it so far, which concerns me. I really really want it to be that, as the only other thing I can think of is a roof leak(flat roof, the other buildings have had issues, and both times this happened, it has been raining. Though the many uneventful rains in between these occurrences would seem to argue against it.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

3. we used to get a leak only when rain came from a certain direction

during spring storms. check the siding and windows getting the most wind, or where it could be whipping around a corner and getting in.

good luck, and take several deep slow breaths when it starts to be too much...

[quakerboy]

6. Today I learned

That the leak is also effecting the neighbor(condo). Great. Just what I needed. I'm broke, out of work, and now I do not have the leisure to figure it out on my own time or try and fix it myself.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

9. You might still be able to figure it out on your own.

are you comfortable with dry-wall repair, or know someone who will show you how?
You've got to get a better look behind the walls to find out where the leak is. Small holes about 3 inches square are easy to patch, but replacing a whole sheet is easier than trying to patch more than 2 holes.
Keeping all that in mind, I would start at the tub (the wall behind it, where the feed and drain pipes are).

before that though, did you try filling the tube up past the overflow valve? if the seal there is leaking that could be why it only happens sometimes.

first fill up the tub halfway. let that sit for a few minutes and go check if you see any leaking from the hole in the ceiling. if so, it's the tub drain leaking. if not, fill the tub almost to the overflow valve, check the ceiling again (more water in the tub will create more pressure, and might show the leak.) if not, fill it more so the overflow is draining the water, and check again. if you still don't see a leak, then it's probable in a pipe connection in the wall and you will have to start pulling drywall.

[mbperrin]

4. It's also possible that the connection of the shower arm into the supply pipe

has begun to leak. If you move the shower head to change position, it's fairly easy to end up with a 1/4 turn backoff or more. That would allow a leak only when the shower is in use, not the tub spout, not when off, but only the shower.

An idea. (The thing could have quit dripping when by chance, it was turned back a 1/4 turn the other way when adjusting the head. Those bigger heads with the adjustable sprays are pretty fairly guilty of that.

[quakerboy]

7. Probably not, but possibly something odd

We actually have it with a handheld shower head, so the main pipe doesn't move.

But one of the neighbors noted that he had a similar problem, with a leak through his lower floor ceiling. In his case, when his tub was set to shower, everything is good. But set what he called a"diverter" to bath, and instant leak.

However, since we have taken occasional baths without any problem, and it reappeared when a shower was being taken, that seems unlikely to be the exact problem. However, I thought maybe my sis left it partially on bath, mostly on shower, and the problem was being in-between settings. So I recreated that scenario.

Still no water leaking from where it was in the ceiling(took down the light fixture, so I can see the path inside the ceiling where it comes down, not just waiting for it to percolate through the sheet rock...

So far, nothing recreates the problem. A leak beside the tub would be best, because its most easily fixed. a little caulk and telling people not to flail. The most likely to have a serious problem would be a leak from the roof drain, but it would be an HOA responsibility, not mine. Or it could be in our plumbing, and then I have to pay for everything that needs to be fixed and replaced. Being out of work, thats more than a little scarey.

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

5. ah ha water guards on the tub ends !

There is another thing that might cure the problem !
try caulking the foor where the flooring materinal meets the bottom of the tub wall-actually run a bead around the walls too-to seal the openings water escapes down into. But caulking the the bottom of the tub wall where the flooring meets the tub is a must !

The plastic shields are a good deterrent but can't stop it all-as some people are messy.

Another thing might be the rubber seal behind yer tub overflow drain-where the stopper drain lever is. $1.59 on the rubber gasket.Ot it's loose-tighten the screw in the middle

Another suspect point of interest may be yer tub floor drain- it may have worked it's way loose. Or the rubber gasket may be worn causing leakage. A ten dollar tool and a 99 cent gasket is the fix on that one. A little tricky getting the gasket through the whole and aligned correctly ,but can be fixed from on top !

so you have two drains to check out on and in your tub- the over flow drain where stopper release lever is the the tub floor drain. Both have rubber gaskets that wear out. and both can loosen .One is a screw and that is apparent-the other the floor drain requires a tool.

Everything else is a good caulk seal at the floor and around your tub where the walls meet the the top of the tub wall.

and if yer still in a condo-it could be coming from a upper unit if there is one !

[quakerboy]

8. Thats one of the next step, not sure why I didnt caulk that already.

But I am concerned that that may not be the problem. I dumped a quart of green dyed rubbing alcohol down that hole, and not a drop came down the leak site.

The whole drain assembly needs to be replaced. But it looked pretty complex while the plumber was looking at it.

Still in a condo. But the only one above me is me. Fortunately and unfortunately. As noted above, my neighbor, who I am also above, reported a similar leak in a spot of her kitchen right across the wall from mine.

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

10. The visible drain assembly

can be repalced easialy with that ten dollar tool. Your tub floor drain, you simply unscrew it. Remove gasket that seals tub drain at the bottom-you pull it out through the hole. Replace gasket insert new drain. About $25.00 for drain assembly complete with gaskets and over flow assembly.

On that floor drain- as you know when the tub shower is being used-there is considerable weight in the tub. And the weight in the tub puts pressure on the tub floor- so the tub sinks down a little- that weight can be just enough to create an opening -a minute opening that allows water to leak. It leaks there because ,1. the drain is loose-and 2. the gasket is worn or 3. well three is a drain pipe issue under the floor.

In apartment buildings or condo's that sort of leaking happens a lot. I can go in turn on the water in the tub- no leak. Tighten drain-go home. The next time the shower is used-it leaks. I think -darn-should have replaced gasket !

I would think caulking the floor where the flooring material meets the bottom of the tub wall is the suspect leak area based on what you say.

However you did mention flat roof and rain at the time of the leak. On that subject matter- the wind will also come into play. You say it doesn't always leak when it rains. If it's a roof leak- it may depend on the direction the wind is blowing and clogged down spouts so fourth. On those tourch down roofs-leaks form at the seams as a rule.

Get down there and look at caulking at the floor level tub wall-look for minute cracks- push on floor -apply pressure to find probable leak area- and seal it. You remove the old caulk first. Use a razor window scrapper- $1.50 and some paint thinner to remove the silicone caulk.Than run yer bead ,then run yer finger down the bead to bring yer seal into finish effect.

The next time it rains hard-pull that light down and check for leaking.

The roof is a common area and the condo association takes care of that- although everyone pays an equal precentage of the repair cost.

If it's the valve - on the one handle type- there is a replacement part that pulls out. About $20.00 for that. On some of those single handle valves-there is a water cut off screw but not all of them. The directions that come with the replacement part tell you how to remove the old valve insert and insert the new one.
simply remove the handle and the round cover-two screws-and you can than see and get to the valve replacement part. It is not complicated.

On the two handle valves- there are as a rule washers that wear out. Of course the water must be shut off. Replacing washers is not complicated.

Pipe leaks in condo's can be a nightmare to most any contractor because- if a wall or a ceiling has to opened outside your unit or a common area-or a unit below yours than, the pesky condo association must get involved-and if the leak is say-under yer tub in the drain line for example- and the unit below you is where it leaks- thats where who's going to pay for all this !

Whereas in apartment buldings the ownners or the management complny will say do what you must do-we will handle it on the tenant end. Just tell us when you want to do it.

Good luck with that.