Gun Control & RKBA
Related: About this forumParents Blame Suicide on $10 Rented Gun
The parents claim it's at least the third time the center rented a gun used for suicide or violence.
On-Target Indoor Shooting Range left 34-year-old Brooke Morrison "totally unattended" on the range after renting her the gun, then let her walk out the door with it in her purse, her parents Brian and Terri Pfahler say in Orange County Court.
Morrison then called her boyfriend and told him "she had a gun and intended to kill herself" and she did, though her boyfriend immediately called emergency personnel, according to the July 9 lawsuit.
http://www.courthousenews.com/2015/07/14/parents-blame-suicide-on-10-rented-gun.htm
= new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight:
NoneDon't highlight anything
5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
mikeysnot
(4,789 posts)is the PROBLEM!
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)The mindless lack of logic used by the gun lovers and their NRA beloved would make a 5 year old cry.
clffrdjk
(905 posts)Maybe you could answer number 5 for us too.
clffrdjk
(905 posts)Steal it and then comit suicide?
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)Last edited Wed Jul 29, 2015, 09:15 AM - Edit history (1)
making guns the preferred harmless, inanimate objects of armies and police and security forces everywhere.
Some of the armies tried equipping Divisions with knives and spoons but they got all killed by armies with guns.
The twisted logic of gun lovers, when pointed out to same, will always result, always, result in ever more grotesque displays of irrational thought and plaintive wails of denial of all kinds.
Do not argue or debate the gun lovers, impale the gun lovers with logic, because melting all the guns down is the only logical option available.
Australia got it.
blueridge3210
(1,401 posts)Typical controller deflection. Business as usual.
clffrdjk
(905 posts)And shortly there after suicide.
benEzra
(12,148 posts)The U.S. suicide rate is middle of the pack compared to other industrialized nations; higher than some, lower than some (including Australia's).
Australia is actually a pretty strong case for the argument that gun bans don't affect suicide rates at all, due to method shift, which has been pretty well documented.
mikeysnot
(4,789 posts)But you seem to think it caused the problem, I am just wondering how exactly you suggest it did that.
mikeysnot
(4,789 posts)clffrdjk
(905 posts)You are looking for reply number one to this thread.
1. Gunzzzz when the solution to a problem...
is the PROBLEM!
Have a nice day.
mikeysnot
(4,789 posts)But I bet you are a big hit in the local school children's playground with your fallacious arguing in circles...
"I know you are but what am I?"
clffrdjk
(905 posts)DonP
(6,185 posts)That's light speed for gun control people that use cartoons for their philosophy.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)anything....no pain, no preparation required...inanimate objects can indeed talk in their own special gun language.
The logic of the NRA and gun lovers is an insult to the intellect and poison to rational debate.
blueridge3210
(1,401 posts)of the pro-control side. Viewing inanimate objects as having mystical powers. Strange religion.
mikeysnot
(4,789 posts)He seems to think guns talk?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172172806#post5
clffrdjk
(905 posts)1. Gunzzzz when the solution to a problem...
is the PROBLEM!
Have a nice day.
mikeysnot
(4,789 posts)without a bad analogy or lame comparison from a gunner, thanks for playing!
It's your post do you care to explain why I am wrong?
blueridge3210
(1,401 posts)clffrdjk
(905 posts)I just like watching them stumble and flail while trying to explain what they will call their own ideas. There is little hope of changing their minds once they are this far into the cult, but just maybe we can get a spark of thought to form and then they may just start exploring and questioning their religion.
mikeysnot
(4,789 posts)When you get back from gun nut fantasy island let us know.
mikeysnot
(4,789 posts)you get nothing. And you offer nothing.
clffrdjk
(905 posts)You are the one unable to come up with a simple logical answer. I am pretty sure that insults your own intellect.
You agreed that guns were the cause of this, I am simply asking how.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)blueridge3210
(1,401 posts)Regardless of your religious views to the contrary.
ileus
(15,396 posts)
clffrdjk
(905 posts)Simple yet completely devoid of logic.
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)
sarisataka
(21,342 posts)an NRA talking point?
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)My bad!
Oneka
(653 posts)Strongly worded letters?
More likely it will be Government enforcers with,Kinder gentler GUNZ!
Still guns as a solution to guns,and horribly hipocritical.
"We will be very very angry with you, and write you a letter telling you how angry we are".
blueridge3210
(1,401 posts) ileus
(15,396 posts)They just won't listen....hateful things.
oneshooter
(8,614 posts)Better be glad I keep them locked in a safe, they both have looong memories and might just go after you, for "old times sake".
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Sort of like Sears allows someone to steal a belt off the sales floor, that might later be used in a suicide. (Hanging)
Would you blame Sears or the Belt in that case?
Oneka
(653 posts)In a sane world we affix blame where it belongs: on the guy/gal that first stole, then killed themselves.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I do think the rental could have done a better job of ensuring a firearm didn't walk out the door, but that wouldn't necessarily keep her from using that firearm to commit suicide, either directly using it on herself, or pointing it at someone to induce lethal return fire.
But the choice, the volition that produced a suicide, is entirely hers. I don't know that 'blame' is even the right word when someone chooses that option. (Certainly blame her for theft though.)
lostnfound
(16,769 posts)People have other options to do themselves in if they want to.
Even though murder can be done by other means, victims have more time to react, run away or intervene before others are attacked.
SecularMotion
(7,981 posts)LOUISVILLE, Ky. -- After losing his job and his girlfriend, Michael Gousha drove to a rural spot in Bullitt County with a pistol he'd bought just days earlier. Parking near an old barn, he got out of the car, fired all the bullets but one, placed the gun to his head and pulled the trigger — ending his life at 23.
Trying to silence the voices in his head, Larry Lepine of Leslie County took handfuls of illegal amphetamines — but survived to rebuild his life.
Both men were distraught. Both suffered from mental illness. The difference was that one used a gun, obliterating any opportunity for a second chance.
While the recent shootings in Newtown, Conn., and Aurora, Colo., have focused attention on the risks of the mentally ill using guns to hurt others, statistics show they are far more likely to turn guns on themselves.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/07/21/guns-most-deadly-choice-in-suicide-attempts/2572097/
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)A friend of my brother's chose battery acid over one of his guns. Perhaps he didn't want to leave a mess for someone else to clean up.
the band leader
(139 posts)If a person wants to reduce the incidence of suicide, they should focus on the suicide issue, not the gun issue. Conflating the issues will only lead to failure and more suicides. The guns are not going away. They aren't going to be melted down. They aren't going to be outlawed.
beergood
(470 posts)agree
a good way to do that is work on making it more acceptable to be lgbt. i read/heard too many stories of lgbt people committing suicide. were moving in the right direction with the us supreme court making it legal in all 50 states, but we still have a long way to go.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)so much more FINAL with a gun, who can argue with that clear logic?
Guns kill people, 320 million of them lying around kill 30000 year after year, not to mention the hundreds of thousands injured and traumatized....and the family and financial costs of this mass slaughter by guns in America, do not get me started, sir!
clffrdjk
(905 posts)A cry for help. I am still not seeing how the gun was the cause.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)clffrdjk
(905 posts)beevul
(12,194 posts)Thats hardly an argument that applies to people that choose to run into a bullet.
fifthofnine
(20 posts)has viewed those who find it, "...SO much easier..." to kill as having something "wrong" with them regardless of the state-of-the-art weaponry of the time. As a general rule, even soldiers in combat dont find it "easy" to kill and their lives depend upon them doing so. It is the individual holding the weapon, not the weapon itself.
"A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer’s hand. – Seneca 4 BC – AD 65 Roman Stoic philosopher, statesman
The Romans seemed to have figured this out nearly 2,000 years ago. I am unsure why this concept still perplexes some in our society.
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)Current gun control advocacy is absolutely larded with animism, both explicit and implied
beevul
(12,194 posts)They hate guns, and want to codify their bias.
Simple as that.
branford
(4,462 posts)Obviously, American firearms need better mental health treatment so they don't go around killing people by themselves or use their mind control rays to turn peaceful and law-abiding people into involuntary raving psychopaths.
Maybe the firearms are just too mad and beaten down. Why are people most afraid of big black firearms, when they are rarely used in crime and are no more lethal than others? I say we need to end institutional firearm racism!
ileus
(15,396 posts)angry at a device.
DonP
(6,185 posts)But then again, with the heat on high to get posts hidden and people banned, it makes sense rather than use a more accurate description.
Seems that a hidden post or a banned poster is the peak of gun control achievement for the past decade.
gwheezie
(3,580 posts)When I do psych evals I will ask the magistrate for a detention order if the suicide plan is to shoot yourself and the person has access or feasible plans to gain access to a gun. No question this ranks high on lethality. So it does matter which method someone chooses. You cannot minimize the use of a gun in a suicide plan.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)clffrdjk
(905 posts)Something you seem to talk an awful lot about, but can't form or come up with on your own.
I agree with the doc, it is their responsibility to determine the treatment and seriousness of the patient.
branford
(4,462 posts)or the patient's diagnosed pathology? That is the primary question of the OP.
What do you do when the patient does not speak about a method, or discusses more ubiquitous means of suicide such as overdose of over the counter medications, carbon monoxide inhalation, hanging, jumping from a great height, cutting their wrists, etc.
Wouldn't professional responsibility demand attempts at involuntary committment, assuming they could not be convinced to do so voluntarily, whenever there was a extreme risk of suicide?
Can you cite any peer reviewed studies which demonstrate legal access to a firearm makes someone more likely to want to commit suicide?
gwheezie
(3,580 posts)They increase the risk of a completed attempt. My point is that anyone who assesses for suicide risk has to determine the method the person plans to use. Yes if someone states they are suicidal with a plan to shoot themselves and had access to a gun they can choose to be admitted voluntarily and if not I would request a detention order.
I don't recommend every person with suicidal ideation be admitted, it depends on the entire assessment and their safety plan. I have had people say they are going to shoot themselves, they don't have a gun. They have no access to a gun and they have no money to buy a gun. That is different.
branford
(4,462 posts)is usually a goal shared by most people, Republicans and Democrats, regardless of their opinion concerning guns.
Current law already prohibits those who are adjudicated as a danger to themselves or others from possessing firearms. I certainly have no objection to you using any necessary legal procedures to protect your patients.
The primary matter is how some people effectively attribute magical or animistic properties to firearms wherein the believe normal people somehow become raving psychopaths or desperately self-destructive in the mere presence of a firearms, no less physical contact. As you acknowledge, this line of reasoning is patently ludicrous, without any scientific support.
In your scenario, the issue is properly your individualized assessment of proper treatment concerning a particular patient's pathology. That's entirely professional and hardly controversial (assuming you're basing you diagnosis on commonly acceptable medical criteria rather than political opinion). If you recommended that everyone, or even all people who've ever sought psychological treatment, be denied a enumerated constitutional right to keep and bear arms, without such individualized personal assessment and lawful government procedure, that's where our perspectives would radically diverge. Personal politics has no basis in medical treatment, and such behavior would be an affront not only to the Second Amendment, but also the most basic tenets of personal privacy, due process, and equal protection.
gwheezie
(3,580 posts)Including who to dispute a commitment. Vacate a temporary detention order and the legal steps to restore their gun rights.
I have 2 opposing examples of why it is an individual determination. Young man was committed, had is guns removed from the home, obtained a gun from his brother in law, went off his meds, killed 8 people.
Young fella with mild mental retardation lived in a rural area with suburban sprawl. Neighbor saw him shooting cat. Police called, he was crying and not able to articulate his thoughts and was issued a temporary order. Sheriff removed his guns. After he calmed down by the next day it was clear he was grieving his dead cat, that putting an animal that is suffering down in the humane act of shooting it is normal in rural America. Neighbors and police over reacted and due to his developmental impairment and grief he was unable to convince police he was not a danger. Police were totally right in their decision to bring him to a hospital rather than jail. After the 72 hour hold and he had his hearing with the judge, he was released. The treatment team assisted him in regaining his gun rights.
I am an advocate for the mentally ill and understand the gravity of taking rights away.
branford
(4,462 posts)who both seeks to treat his (her?) patients while ensuring their legal rights are protected. I don't believe our views concerning firearms in this context diverge much, if at all, and I do not envy the types of difficult decisions you must make concerning people's lives.
I just hope in those instances where a true involuntary commitment is warranted, that the authorities actually follow the current NICS reporting law without any foolish mistakes so that the public is protected.
gwheezie
(3,580 posts)A older fella clearly was not ever going to be competent to own guns again and was going to need supervised living. When we looked into placement he had no funds. His wealth was in his extensive gun collection that was now in possession of the sheriff. His gun collection was valued at 30k. We found a lawyer who agreed to work pro bono to make sure he wasn't ripped off by the sheriff. People who lose their rights lose more than their guns.
branford
(4,462 posts)particularly when the loss is related to infirmity or illness, rather than any criminality or malfeasance.
I'm glad you found a pro bono attorney and acted to protect both your patient's health and finances.