Gun Control & RKBA
Related: About this forumAR-15 inventor's family: "Meant to be a military weapon." "He'd have been horrified and sickened."
the family of the inventor of the AR-15 rifle says that the gun was not intended for civilian use but for military purposes.
Our father, Eugene Stoner, designed the AR-15 and subsequent M-16 as a military weapon to give our soldiers an advantage over the AK-47, the Stoner family told NBC News. He died long before any mass shootings occurred. But, we do think he would have been horrified and sickened as anyone, if not more by these events.
https://time.com/4371452/orlando-shooting-ar-15-military-civilian-family/
Link to tweet
PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)The current gun called the AR-15 is semi-automatic and doesn't differ significantly from a host of other semi-automatic guns except perhaps it's customizability.
flamin lib
(14,559 posts)The M4 allows 3 rounds to be fired with a single trigger activation, an AR 15 only one. Two rounds per trigger pull. That's it. That is not a significant difference.
oneshooter
(8,614 posts)Enough difference that one is legal for civilians, the other is restricted to Military/ Police ONLY.
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)The same handguns that are legal here are effectively prohibited in Canada (except for at ranges).
So is the same handgun different because two laws treat it differently?
The guns youre talking about are quite similar.
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,604 posts)The law respects a functional difference.
wasupaloopa
(4,516 posts)are used in mass killings.
I understand the desire to make it hard to write a law banning them.
I carried a M16A1 in Vietnam. They were just being used a few months before I left. I had a M14 before. A M-14 could also be used in a mass killing. But it seems no one has one.
So there needs to be a term or description to use in the law. My idea is to make the law open ended so that it can be made to cover any new attempt to get around it.
yagotme
(4,029 posts)Same thing, except no happy switch on receiver. They are out there, but not as plentiful as the AR. Probably too heavy for the perps to carry comfortably.
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,604 posts)Is it the best course to outlaw weapons used in famous crimes?
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)Fear drives ownership of weapons of mass destruction.
IronLionZion
(47,315 posts)flamin lib
(14,559 posts)Even the "civilian" AR 15 which was marketed to the Navy for use aboard ship. Ships are made of steel. Bullets bounce around unpredictably in steel enclosures. The Navy did not want full auto weapons in that environment.
Lokilooney
(322 posts)Could you provide a link with your source?
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)As for your interlocutor in particular, I'll just leave these links here:
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1262&pid=11154
If YOU don't understand the internal mechanisms of assault weapons I suggest that you are too ignorant of the topic to have this discussion.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/1172197860#post19
et seq.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/1172191999#post51
https://www.democraticunderground.com/1172197860#post55
https://www.democraticunderground.com/1172197860#post87
et seq.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/12629113#post2
Marengo
(3,477 posts)friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)3. I'm bookmarking this for future reference
There has never been any real doubt about the AR being an assault rifle. It has been marketed as such from the beginning. It was only after the general public began to recognize it for the threat it is that the NRA launched a major marketing campaign to change the name from Assault Weapon to Popular Sporting Rifle.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/1172199103#post67
https://www.democraticunderground.com/1172199103#post103
103. Do tell.
"Since the NRA discovered that after years of marketing the AR as an assault weapon it was getting a bad reputation among the general public they started a concentrated effort to re-badge the gun as a "popular sporting rifle". This is a totally and completely new and fictional kind of gun."
How long had they been "marketing the AR as an assault weapon" before 1963, when this ad appeared?
And why was the NRA doing Colt's marketing for them? Do they actually create advertising campaigns for manufacturers, or do they just run the ads for free in the American Rifleman?
Response to friendly_iconoclast (Reply #14)
friendly_iconoclast This message was self-deleted by its author.
yagotme
(4,029 posts)Whoever wrote that didn't know Stoner that well. There are Former Marines. Not Ex. Therefore, the rest of his statement falls into question...
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,604 posts)Mr Stoner died April 24, 1997
Since these shootings were major crimes and 10 or more people were killed at each one, I'm sure his family is mistaken.
1949 Camden shootings
1966 University of Texas tower shooting
1975 Easter Sunday massacre
1982 Wilkes-Barre shootings
1983 Wah Mee massacre
1984 San Ysidro McDonald's massacre
1984 Palm Sunday massacre
1986 Edmond post office shooting
1991 Luby's shooting
Many firearms were designed for the military and have been used by civilians for legal purposes.
Marengo
(3,477 posts)A available for civilian sales since 1964. He had more than enough time to speak up if he truly felt that way.
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)Heh.
Marengo
(3,477 posts)Straw Man
(6,819 posts)He didn't say it when he was alive, but in posthumous hindsight they are eager to assert that he would have done so had he been asked.
I think it's a defensive reaction on their part to the public shaming that is attaching itself to anything AR-15-related.
samir.g
(836 posts)His fortune was made off his bloody invention.
Straw Man
(6,819 posts)He merely refined and modernized it.
This AR-fetishism is getting absurd.
wasupaloopa
(4,516 posts)It helped me survive.
jpak
(41,780 posts)Please tell me why this is wrong.
Straw Man
(6,819 posts)Here's the weapon that was used in the deadliest mass killing to date in the United States:
jpak
(41,780 posts)discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,604 posts)...a pot laughs at a supposed kettle. YMMV
Straw Man
(6,819 posts)I will ponder it deeply and respond as time permits.
jpak
(41,780 posts)If you were referring to David Koreash and Branch Davidians, they used assault weapons to kill and injure federal LEO - before they burned themselves down.
Lawn Darts were banned after one death.
The AR-15 death toll is in the thousands and counting....
Have a wonderful night!
yagotme
(4,029 posts)Ring any bells?
ETA: Along with jet fuel in tall buildings. Just remembered the upcoming date after posting.
jpak
(41,780 posts)That own shit like AR-15s
Gun nut fail
Again
Oh - yeah.
AR-15s have killed more Americans than OKC and 9/11 combined
Epic Fail
Straw Man
(6,819 posts)... I'd like to see a citation for that. What's your source?
Straw Man
(6,819 posts)No, not the Branch Davidians. Google "the Happy Land Social Club fire." Read and learn.
ManiacJoe
(10,136 posts)The AR-15 style rifles are semi-auto rifles.
By definition, that means they cannot be weapon of mass destruction.
There is no such category as "mass murder weapon". The concept is pure silliness. Any object can be used as a weapon to commit mass murder if one tries hard enough.
If you want to have a meaningful conversation, you first need to define the terms you are making up on the fly.
jpak
(41,780 posts)case
closed
The AR-15 is indefensible.
Yup
ManiacJoe
(10,136 posts)Unfortunately for any discussion purposes, the Sandy Hook parents are just as ignorant about guns and their laws as you are. That makes having any real discussion rather difficult.
If you believe there is something special about AR-15 style rifles that causes them to need extra restrictions that other rifles do not need, please let us know what it is.
jpak
(41,780 posts)Did I say they suck?
Why yes I did.
And the do.
ManiacJoe
(10,136 posts)jpak
(41,780 posts)mass murderers.
Fact
ManiacJoe
(10,136 posts)at the top of the "criminally-used rifle" list. The fact that any kind of rifle used in crimes is relatively small in number just skews the stats even more.
This is like saying that the Toyota Camry is the most popular bank-robbery get-away car. As true (or not) as it may be, it does not help in discussions about bank robberies.
Straw Man
(6,819 posts)... "90% of crime guns come from 5% of licensed dealers," as I've heard bandied about so much lately. Uh ... yeah. Those are mega-dealers who outsell Ma and Pa Gunshop by a factor of ... oh, shall we say 20 to 1? We're talking Wal-Mart, Bass Pro, Academy, Gander, Bud's, Hyatt, etc. Arguably, 90% of all guns come from that 5%.
The number itself is no indicator of corrupt practice, especially since it doesn't account for any changes in the chain of custody from point of sale to use in a crime.
Straw Man
(6,819 posts)As in "I want to commit mass murder, but if I can't get my preferred weapon, I think I'll just go home and look for a movie on Netflix"?
Some facts are more useful than others.
oneshooter
(8,614 posts)And how many of these " hundreds " were killed by the AR-15, WITH OUT the hand of a human controlling it?
jpak
(41,780 posts)Fuck the NRA
Yup
oneshooter
(8,614 posts)" Fuck the NRA " is no answer.
jpak
(41,780 posts)pathetic
yup
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)...Stoner said bupkis publicly about civilian use of his design while he was alive, and the claim that
"he died long before any mass shootings occured" is demonstrably false, as see:
https://www.democraticunderground.com/1172208791#post6
Since these shootings were major crimes and 10 or more people were killed at each one, I'm sure his family is mistaken.
1949 Camden shootings
1966 University of Texas tower shooting
1975 Easter Sunday massacre
1982 Wilkes-Barre shootings
1983 Wah Mee massacre
1984 San Ysidro McDonald's massacre
1984 Palm Sunday massacre
1986 Edmond post office shooting
1991 Luby's shooting
On the plus side, because of this thread we've all learned a new template for non-responsive responses to inconvenient questions:
"A noun, a verb, and something derogatory about guns and/or gun owners"