Most progressive Islamic countries?

[MH1]

I'm looking to be educated about this. In Help & Meta there was some discussion of bigotry against Islam and/or Muslims. I have a conception of Islam that it is NOT progressive, and that most Islamic countries are not progressive, and that some are downright horrific. But I want to be open-minded. You all don't know me personally, so you might not believe this, but I actually do struggle with this. I don't want to be prejudiced.

So, I have a series of questions. This is the first. What are the BEST - in your mind - examples of Islamic countries that show a positive, liberal, even progressive treatment of all their people? Which ones get it the most right with respect to Human Rights for all, regardless of race, gender, or sexual orientation? Are any tolerant of other religions, or someone who was born a Muslim converting to another religion (or atheism)?

Thanks for any light you can shed.

Note: I also want to be clear: whatever I think about Islamic countries and how they treat their people based on what I see and hear in the news - I do NOT assume about individuals. With everyone, I wait and see how the person presents themself, rather than responding to them based on pre-conceived notions.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

1. ***crickets***

[MH1]

2. Well, give it time.

I'm hoping for a positive discussion here.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

4. Still nothing but ***Crickets***

The reason is that there is no islamic nation that is the least bit progressive. The sharia is so backwards that any nation basing its legal system on it could not be called progressive.

The most progressive nation in the middle east, despite its failings, is Israel

[Violet_Crumble]

7. The OP said they're looking for a positive discussion....

Seeing as how yr in this group, I think you should use it as a learning experience, not to try to make it a negative thing...

Everything in yr post is totally incorrect. Some countries have been mentioned in this thread that are the 'least bit' progressive.

And I'm sure it's been pointed out to you before, but Israel has Sharia courts. Here's an article about it for you to read and learn from

'Israeli family law is in the hands of the religious courts, and has been so since the creation of the country. Everyone has heard of the travesty that is the rabbinical court system, but few people realize that there is also a publicly-funded Sharia court system: some 19% of the population of Israel is Muslim, and naturally they are not expected to have rabbis marry and divorce them. There are eight Sharia courts in Israel: in Jerusalem, Jaffa, Haifa, Be’er Sheva, Nazareth, Acre, Taybeh, and Baka Al Garabiya.

Why does Israel maintain such courts? Because family law is mostly out of the reach of the civil courts. You can’t have a civil marriage in Israel. You can’t even have a civil divorce, even assuming you were married elsewhere. Why not? Because in a civil court, the government will have to acknowledge “miscegenation”, marriages between Jews and non-Jews. Most Jew are opposed to that, sometimes violently – the 50 rabbis who yesterday demanded that Jews will refrain from renting apartments to non-Jews based their demand, inter alia, on the fear of “miscegenation” – yet nobody wanted a Nuremberg-like laws. That would be hard to explain away. The result was the empowerment of the religious courts, who preceded Israel, by the young state. Since religious courts would not permit intermarriage between Jews and non-Jews, and would demand conversion, and since wishing to marry a Jew would automatically disqualify a gentile from conversion to Judaism, this seemed like a neat solution.

And so Israel adopted Sharia. Just don’t tell American conservatives. Neocons, of course, being acolytes of the Noble Lie school, probably know this already.

And lie about it.'

http://972mag.com/why-israel-imposes-sharia-law/5824/


btw, how do you feel about Oklahoma's ban on sharia law being overturned?

[MH1]

12. Interesting, I didn't know that about Israeli law.

972mag.com is an interesting site.

The OK law was overturned, if I recall correctly from reading about it, because it was political posturing against something for which no cases even exist. I was happy to see it overturned. That said, no one will ever mistake Oklahoma for a "progressive country"!! (Coburn, Inhofe. 'Nuff said.) Altho Tulsa has some pockets of liberalism. And of course there are progressives who manage to live there. (I'd probably go insane, myself.)

[ZombieHorde]

3. I am not aware of any progressive Islamic Counties, but there are progressive Muslims.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Muslim_Union

People make gods in their own image, so progressives worship progressive gods.

[MH1]

13. That group is defunct, but there is a new one, Muslims for Progressive Values

http://www.mpvusa.org/

I'm glad I asked, because I wouldn't have known about this group otherwise.

[Alameda]

5. Turkey seems to be the most progressive Islamic country.

Although the country is not an official Islamic one, most the citizens are Muslim. Turks are particularly fond of their saints, in particular like Yunis Emre.

Yunus Emre

A single word can brighten the face
of one who knows the value of words.
Ripened in silence, a single word
acquires a great energy for work.

War is cut short by a word,
and a word heals the wounds,
and there's a word that changes
poison into butter and honey.

Let a word mature inside yourself.
Withhold the unripened thought.
Come and understand the kind of word
that reduces money and riches to dust.

Know when to speak a word
and when not to speak at all.
A single word turns the universe of hell
into eight paradises.

Follow the Way. Don't be fooled
by what you already know. Be watchful.
Reflect before you speak.
A foolish mouth can brand your soul.

Yunus, say one last thing
about the power of words --
Only the word "I"
divides me from God.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

8. Actually Turkey is a secular nation, not an islamic one.

Definitions matter, and the accepted definition is that an islamic nation bases its legal code and principles on the sharia. Turkey does not, though a large percentage of the population is muslim. It is not particularly progressive, though it is better than Iran, Saudi Arabia and other nations in the region. Adding in the Armenian issue would only make things worse.

Allowing sharia courts to settle matters within the muslim community is not the same as basing the nation's legal system on the sharia. Many nations do that at some level.

Its hard to tell is Turkey is trending away from its staunch secular roots. There are those who claim it is, others denying it. Certainly there are those who are trying to make it a more islamic nation and have been very upfront about it.

I have friends living there now. While they are guarded in their personal comms, its pretty clear that things have changed in the 10+ years they have been there.

[Violet_Crumble]

9. So yr arguing that one of the most populous Muslim countries in the world isn't an Islamic country?

Indonesia's secular, and it has one of the largest Muslim populations in the world. And if yr saying that by being secular, a country can't be defined as being Islamic, how does that work with another country you mentioned, Israel? Israel's secular, so does that mean you don't think it's a Jewish country?

That's a bit weird that yr friends are so guarded. I've got Turkish friends and they're definitely not guarded when they talk to me about whether or not they think things have changed...

[Violet_Crumble]

6. Turkey's the best example of one...

It's a secular country. As is Indonesia, which is one of the world's most populous Muslim countries. There's probably quite a few countries in South East Asia, that while not being right up there with countries like Sweden and Norway when it comes to being socially progressive, are moving in the right direction, and have been for a while. Now the US has announced it's moving it's attention from the Middle East to Asia, I'm hoping it won't do anything to send things backwards...

What I'd also point out is there's more than a few non-Muslim countries that have appalling records when it comes to equal rights for all regardless of race, gender, or sexual orientation, but the media and Americans in general have a habit of only focusing on it if they can link it with Islam or Muslims...

As for freedom of religion, just off the top of my head, I've got two examples. Freedom of religion is in the Malaysian Constitution, and the same goes for Indonesia. I'm not sure about this renouncing of religion thing. I'm still technically a Christian, and I'm not aware of how I go about officially resigning from Christianity seeing I'm an Atheist. I'm positive there's plenty of agnostic and atheist Muslims around. I myself know a Muslim who's pretty militant about his atheism

I'm pleased that you've thrown open a discussion down here that you want to be positive and informative, and with one exception so far, I'm seeing that everyone is being constructive and wanting a positive discussion. I'm guessing that the thread I started in H&M on bigotry against minority groups at DU http://www.democraticunderground.com/124019934 may have been one of the discussions yr referring to, and I just wanted to make sure you knew that the reasons for the concerns I have about anti-Muslim bigotry being allowed at DU isn't talking about stuff where someone is actually criticising the treatment of women or gays in some Islamic countries, but stuff where the topic is American Muslims and someone comes along and talks about them not being like Americans. Or when the one DUer I've seen banned so far for anti-Muslim comments is congratulated in the thread for what they said by another DUer. They're the people I'm talking about, not someone like you who wants to learn about Islam and bigotry against Muslims and unlike a few other DUers has never said anything to give any indication that you would be bigoted towards Muslims...

[harun]

10. A very good question for discussion.

First we would start with defining what you mean by "Islamic Countries". In this I assume you mean countries where the majority of people living in them are Muslims. However, if you were to ask Muslims how many countries today are governed "Islamicly" you would get most of them saying none and a few possibly naming a couple.

I can say I have never met any Muslim who has any interest in limiting Human Rights for all.

In terms of a comparison this is difficult for me as I have only spent time in Egypt and Turkey. You have such long cultural history in these places that I don't think you can compare the way U.S. culture deals with one specific issue to the way they may handle it there and get much benefit from it.

If you look at the field of Cultural Anthropology they do their research usually based on the researcher going and living and interacting with the culture being studied for at least two years. Why is this important? Because without it you don't understand what the practices and dealings mean. Almost always you will take them out of context because you will be putting them in to your own context based on the culture you live in.

Some here brought up Turkey. In Turkey "secular" means something different than it does here in the U.S. when we use the term. There it means actively against religion and religious people. Here it means no stance. An attempt to stay neutral. In Turkey the Friday Kutba (Sermon) is given to them from the State Authority. The same state authority that also outlaws ladies from wearing a head shall in any state college and forbids teaching reading of the Qur'an in Arabic to anyone under 14 years of age. So its all over the place.

How they got to this point is complex, the history and what they mean for the people living there is important to consider.

To answer your core question the leaders of Progressive causes in majority Muslim countries would be Indonesia, Turkey and Egypt. Before one says that is crazy to call any of them Progressive, simply look back at the United States 50-60 years ago. We have changed dramatically since then. You'll see a lot of change out of the so called "Islamic" world in the near future.

In my opinion the Progressive principles you raise are more a product of ancient cultures than are codified anywhere in the teachings of Islam. There is no verse in the Qur'an dealing with homosexuality. Man is the one obsessed with sex, not God.

[MH1]

11. Thanks everyone for the informative responses!

Sorry I have been absent from the thread so long. I've gotten busy and haven't had time to read AND post thoughtful replies. (I've posted a little elsewhere on DU in the meantime, but those threads didn't require the thought and tempering that this one does.)

Anyway I appreciate the information and discussion.

[Andrew_Writer]

14. it is NOt

it is NOT progressive! Turkey isn't too bad, i enjoyed it.

Andrew

[naragdaban]

15. Turkey and Malaysia

Turkey and the urban areas of Malaysia are rather progressive. Also many urban Indonesians are practically secular on a lot of issues.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

16. what country based in religion is progressive?

that being said, have the countries become less progressive since islam? if you look at Bedouin culture before islam, women had no rights to property. post islam women did.

some of these countries in which islam is the majority were very repressive towards women way before islam.

[Pterodactyl]

17. The United States!

Before you say that the US is not Muslim, remember that there are more than six million Muslims in the US. That is more than many Middle Easrern countries.

[MH1]

18. Interesting fact, but irrelevant. Didn't think I needed to define "Islamic country" but here goes:

Islamic country:

1. a sovereign nation with a constitution that explicitly states that the law is based on Islamic law;
2. a sovereign nation with a government that governs largely according to Islamic law, as evidenced by expressed sentiments of major government officials and lack of outcry from Islamic religious leaders of a failure to do so;
3. (loosely, and I don't recall if I intended to include these in the question in my original post) a sovereign nation with a population whose acknowledged religion is vastly predominantly (like over 90%) Islam.

The U.S. may be the most progressive place for a Muslim to live. Unfortunately, we see case after case in the media (which may not be true, of course, but it's all we've got) where a Muslim comes to this progressive country to live, than chooses NOT to live according to our progressive customs*, and in some cases want to drive back progressivism and impose the standards of their religion - and 6 million out of 350+ million is not enough to truly influence policy, without the help of the right wing.

* actually I have more than media reports for the not living by progressive customs. I see shrouded women EVERY F**** DAY (that I go into the city). I might get raked for this, but the truth is I have no idea when I see one, how much "choice" she actually felt she had in choosing to cover her face. Knowing how women often feel compelled to conform to someone else's idea of dress and comportment, rather than her own, regardless of religion, I have to believe that many do not really choose for themselves, but someone else has decided to continue that custom here.

[iqbal1980]

19. What do you mean by progressive?

I'm Muslim of Moroccan origin. And I can tell you that most people really don't care about Sharia or Secularism. They just want make more money have a good life, education etc.. However I think your idea of progressive is relative. It's not really about the Sharia or the government. It's the people are not yet ready to accept certain progressive ideas. For instance I for my self had no understanding why LGBT are allowed to live until age 26 when I quit Morocco spend few months in Europe moved to US and became recently a proud US citizen. It took me years to question my believes. Met with some LGBT people. Realized they were people like me and you. People are not ready yet for some ideas. It will take years and lots of education. By the way, although I'm a proud american I think Europe is more progressive. US actually is very similar to Muslim countries when it comes to religion. "Westboro Baptist church" for instance.

There are areas and aspects were some Muslim countries showed progressive Ideas. For instance Turkey, Indonesia , Pakistan and Bangladesh all had women prime ministers. The US has yet to elect a woman for president. But these same countries are still backward in concepts like freedom of speech and human rights. So being progressive is a broad term you should really define what progressive ideas you are talking about.

[pangaia]

20. Do a litle research into Oman.

I spent several weeks there in early 2011 and was impressed. I was there working so was not a 'tourist' but made real connections with people. It is a Sultanate and the Sultan is quite enlightened.

[Herman4747]

21. With regards at least to inheritance...

...this webpage, Inheritance in Islam, (from the DebatingIslam website) indicates in a chart for the second post that Turkey, Indonesia, Bosnia, and Kosovo are the most progressive regarding inheritance (specifically, having the highest percentages believing that daughters and sons should inherit equal amounts from their parents), while the least progressive were Morocco, Iraq, and Jordan (In Morocco, only about 15% of adults believe in equality for sons and daughters with regards to inheritance.
It should be noted that not all Islamic countries had participants in this particular survey. Only 23 did. Countries such as Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc. were not featured in this survey.