I'm so tired of religion being treated like a special set of beliefs

[redqueen]

like a category of ideas that are given protected status, this giving its adherents an expectation that the ideas should be respected and not criticized too forcefully.

Religion may not be the only example of this but it's the biggest I think.

More and more studies show an inverse relationship between religion and intelligence. Throughout history we have seen leaders use religion to manipulate the masses for no other reason their own gains again and again and again - yet still so many cling to these ideas.

It's encouraging that the number of nonreligious people is increasing, I just wish it would happen faster.

[HAB911]

1. I'm with you

religion deserves no quarter

[redqueen]

4. I keep saying it should be taught in school

along with all the other mythologies. And they should carefully discuss all the bigotry and hatred and contradictions in each.

[Roy Rolling]

21. Religion *is* taught in schools

Government-run religions are not taught in public schools. It’s an important distinction. Educated people usually know the basics of most religious faiths, and are agnostic, atheist, or humbly believing in the same thing—a world of peaceful coexistence.

Uneducated people have no real world to compare their personal beliefs, and easily fall victim to religious/political/matchmaker scams. They just want to believe they’re a member of a group of fools like them.

[ancianita]

28. Studies also show that among "fools like them" are the 48% of scientists who claim a religion.

They constitute educated people who've made an educated decision that compares what they study about the micro/macro of the universe as compatible with their spiritual beliefs.

Yes, religion is taught ABOUT in schools. They are ancient systems of thought and morality that the public's children should know about. And in a democracy, religious schools are separate and private, as religion is supposed to be in any democratic body politic.

[redqueen]

47. What are government -run religions?

I don't think I made myself clear. When students are studying Greek gods and roman gods and Norse gods they should also learn about abrahamic gods at that same time and in that same context. Mythology.

[LiberalFighter]

39. Not enough time.

[jimfields33]

7. We bend over backwards for religions.

So many schools even call off for religious holidays especially in northern Virginia. It’s insane and not necessary. I’m sure it’s the same all over the country.

[HAB911]

8. The very thought

"You can't criticize my religion" really pisses me off. Of all the tings in the world that NEED criticizing, religion is tops. That whole tread in GD is just insane

[jimfields33]

10. True!

[ancianita]

32. It pisses me off, too. All religions are the tops in being criticized & rational believers shouldn't be pissed off

when anyone criticizes their religion. The world has 10,000 religions. Lots to criticize.

What's insane in GD is to personalize others' Democratic Party politics because of their membership in a religion.

GD holds first and foremost that church/religion and state are separate.
All believers in GD agree that church/religion and state remain separate, as does their believer president.

To imply otherwise is to undermine Democrats and the party.

[Croney]

2. I agree.

[Voltaire2]

3. It's fucking exhausting arguing this idiocy.

[redqueen]

5. I saw you apologizing for educating someone about the fact

that most religious people vote for Republicans. Apparently they thought it was only evangelicals.

We have kowtowed to these groups for too long. All over the world, religion is used to get votes for the right wing. Isn't it time we stopped helping them by playing along?

[Voltaire2]

6. I try to not be obviously rude.

I frequently fail. Being rude here is hazardous .

Also the sorry was sarcastic.

[keithbvadu2]

9. MANY special sets of beliefs. And many are the only true set of beliefs.

Oftentimes, the method of religion is more important the the God of religion.

[paleotn]

11. Exactly. Of all world views, why is religion exempt from rational discussion?

Perhaps because they're well aware their views won't hold up to anything approaching rigorous inquiry?

[ancianita]

37. It shouldn't be exempt. The history of many standing religions shows that they have not been exempt.

4,000 religions on the planet, most categorized into 5 major groups.
https://www.visualcapitalist.com/cp/visualizing-religions-worldwide/#:~:text=According%20to%20some%20estimates%2C%20there,Buddhism%2C%20Hinduism%2C%20and%20Judaism.

Around here, it seems that the Christian group gets most criticized, and as a group it's based on the writings of another group, Judaism.

When the Torah was created -- some 700 years before Christians' Jesus showed up -- that was the point at which theological scholars say "rational religion" was established. Why rational? Because the Torah was based on thousands of scrolls, the original manuscripts of law and order in society.

Today's common law and international law are based on the principles laid out in those ancient Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek scrolls that were also the basis of the Abrahamic religions. In other words, today's laws are based on biblical principles.

Those biblical principles were thousands of years in development by some 40+ writers over millennia, across 3 continents. Atheists and agnostics should know that they stand as foundational to Western modern order.

The incomplete and/or mistaken views of religions' members might not hold up to rigorous inquiry, but their holy books, as historical ancient writings, have been THE most rigorously challenged of all books written by humanity.

There are recorded verifications of multiple eyewitness and expert testimonies, a standard of modern courts.
There are standards of direct and indirect evidence used in today's courts.
Not to mention geneological records...

Whole academic majors exist worldwide to study, scrutinize and prove/disprove ancient works. I went to undergrad and graduate schools, public and private, and took classes in the history of religion, philosophy of religion, theology, philosophy, etc., during which time I read/studied hundreds of original texts that stand as scholarship by smart people.

It's not as if one is stupid because one can't argue at those levels about what have now come to be beliefs.

Call them stupid rubes? You might as well call all of us the same for not being able to prove gravity exists.

[OMGWTF]

12. Religion-- helping stupid people feel important since the dawn of time.

[rubbersole]

33. "Religion is the opiate of the masses." Karl Marx

[Voltaire2]

52. It's more like meth mixed with random shit.

It causes all sorts of agitated delusional behavior in a small subset of the religious. How small a subset sort of drives the effect this has on the rest of us. If it was an opiate it wouldn’t be so destructive.

It is a real world version of the ‘woke virus fantasy’ .

[DBoon]

57. Marx didn't mean that as a bad thing

Opium was the only effective pain reliever in his day. Most injuries and illnesses did not have an effective treatment, the most one could do is alleviate the suffering with opium.

Marx meant opium not as the illegal addicting drug we think of it now, but as a pain reliever of last resort.

[enigmania]

13. Religion

is killing us, literally.

[Comfortably_Numb]

14. If I wanted to be ruled by Opus Dei intolerance I would join Opus Dei. They can keep their mystical cloud daddy.

[Pendrench]

15. Hi redqueen, thank you for starting this discussion.

I consider myself to be a religious person (Christian), and I believe that you are correct that my religious beliefs do not deserve any sort of special consideration or deference by anyone else.

As such, even though I still adhere to my own faith I greatly appreciate the morals, opinions, and insights of others who do not share my faith.

Again, thank you for the interesting discussion!

Tim

[RSherman]

16. "The Founding Myth" by Andrew L. Seidel

Seidel cites a Phil Zuckerman study:

The least religious countries

have the lowest rates of violent crime and homicide
are the best places to raise children and be a mother
have the lowest rates of corruption
have the lowest levels of intolerance against racial and ethnic minorities
score highest for women's rights and gender equality
have the greatest protection of political & civil liberties
are better at educating their youth in reading, math, and science
are the most peaceful
are the most prosperous
have the highest quality of life

There are similar findings in "We of Little Faith" by Kate Cohen.

[redqueen]

48. Not surprising at all

All the studies that show an inverse relationship between religiosity and intelligence are telling us something.

[CrispyQ]

17. We have a family member who made us to all join hands while he said grace, a very long grace with lots of Jesus.

The first time it happened three of us looked at each other with WTF expressions while everyone else had bowed heads. We learned when dinner was about to be served to go outside & how horrified would he have been to know we smoked a joint on his front porch step.

The current backlash is from years & years of this kind of down-your-throat behavior by Christians.

[redqueen]

49. I grew up Catholic.

Bless us oh Lord, and these thy gifts which we are about to receive from thy bounty. Through Christ, our Lord. Amen

Nice and short. Never understood the Protestants with all their yammering for 10 minutes while the food gets cold. What the hell. Have a conversation at bedtime.

[mountain grammy]

18. I have a few friends who are very religious

and they agree with you. My religious Jewish family (so few remain) were just happy to be in America and have the opportunity to practice their religion in peace and safety. They were never out to recruit anyone. My uncle used to say, I don't care if they hate me, I can walk from my home to the temple wearing my yarmulke and no one tries to kill me.

the current Christo-fascists want to kill us.

[Orrex]

19. Let me rec this post 50 times.

[edhopper]

20. It is quite clear to me that the establishment clause of the First Amendment

was meant to keep Religion out of government. The free exercise clause was to prevent government from oppressing any religion group. BUT, religion has no place in secular government.
And no religious document should be used to base a law or legal ruling.

[bluescribbler]

58. I think it was meant to work both ways.

Keep religion out of government and keep government out of religion. Remember, the founding fathers were rebelling against Great Britain, where the King was, (and still is), the head of the Anglican church, which is the state sanctioned religion. They didn't want the authorities telling them what to believe and whom to worship, any more than they wanted the Church dictating the laws they were to live under. I think they had it right, btw.

[bluescribbler]

59. I think it's both

Keep religion out of government and keep government out of religion. Remember, the founding fathers were rebelling against Great Britain, where the King was, (and still is), the head of the Anglican church, which is the state sanctioned religion. They didn't want the authorities telling them what to believe and whom to worship, any more than they wanted the Church dictating the laws they were to live under. I think they had it right, btw.

[malthaussen]

22. Moi aussi.

I don't care what anybody's particular kink is, but I do mind them imposing their kinky ideas on me.

I have this radical idea that religion should be strictly prohibited from being mentioned in political campaigning at all, as it is irrelevant. It should also not ever be cited as a reason for a civil regulation or statute, if we truly want to maintain that we keep Church and State separate.

And if a person's "deeply-held religious belief" prohibits them from doing their job, whether it be to bake a cake, register a marriage, or facilitate an abortion, then that person should show some character and find a different job. "If you don't like your job, put the buck-buck-bucket down," as the song had it.

-- Mal

[redqueen]

50. "religion should be strictly prohibited from being mentioned in political campaigning at all"

Love this idea. Just no mention of any religion at all in campaigns or any part of the government - there is no reason for it.

Wait, unless a cult starts kidnapping kids (again) or some heinous crap like that. That has have to be dealt with.

[malthaussen]

55. Sure, but candidates bragging about their religion should be unacceptable.

It irritates me greatly, as it is (or rather, should be) completely irrelevant to their suitability for office.

-- Mal

[redqueen]

56. Agree so very, very strongly.

And the fact that here we are in the 21st century and the speaker of the house is turning political retreats into religious revivals should make the seriousness of this situation crystal clear for everyone, religious or not.

[Flatrat]

23. We should be embracing critical thinking skills

Not dogmatic sky fairy narratives.

[sop]

24. "Theology is the effort to explain the unknowable in terms of the not worth knowing." - H. L. Mencken

[usaf-vet]

25. Are there any proveable facts in the bible? Science relies on years of research and peer reviews to establish......

..... scientific facts.

But do we even know who wrote the bible?

How much is fact, speculation, faith only, and finally fear?

[Lunabell]

29. None that I know of.

And the jesus of the bible never even existed.

Whoever wrote the sermon on the mount was cool, but it wasn't this cat named jesus.

[Voltaire2]

43. There were two of them anyway.

There was one sermon, but in one book it is 'on a mountain' and in another it is 'on a plain'. The discrepancy is managed by the professional religious bullshitters by claiming that despite both occurring early in the jesus timeline, and despite neither reference referring to the other, and despite the content being similar, they are different events.

Also there are multiple versions of the OT '10' commandments. The sacred books are just filled with contradictory horseshit.

[Voltaire2]

42. The 'old testament' has some more or less accurate history.

Not a lot, but some.

[Lunabell]

44. And there's no evidence at all for Jewish enslavement in Egypt.

Another really big, big lie.

[Voltaire2]

45. Yeah that one is ludicrous

Just to be super annoying I have to point that out every passover. As the Pesach Curmudgeon it is my duty. Horrible story. Entirely fictitious. The fiction part is actually its best feature, as otherwise it is a hideous account of a genocide.

[PJMcK]

26. For me, religion is a waste

To invest time, money and energy in what I perceive to be mythology is a tremendous waste of resources.

Science provides answers that don’t require supernatural powers. When scientists don’t know something, not only are they excited and motivated to figure it out, they state clearly, “I don’t know. Let’s see what’s going on.” Religions make up some magical answer. It’s really quite pathetic.

As I wrote, this is my opinion. Unlike too many proselytizers, I don’t try to influence other people’s thoughts.

[kairos12]

27. Agree. Too many Elmer Gantry types selling quackery.

[Farmer-Rick]

30. There are a lot of lies a Society promotes

Slavery is good economics for everyone, everyone can be filthy-rich without any help from society or relatives, capitalism (slavery feudalism) is the best economic system ever, rich or famous and powerful people are smart and good, there's only one good way to have sex, you must accept whatever sex you are assigned at birth, there is a real God(s), religion is moral and loving.

And on and on it goes.

I think the most intelligent people see through these lies and understand that they never were true. They were and are just used by people with power to stay in power. Religion and God are good tools for keeping the majority of citizens in check.

Religion promises another life where only good things happen. And oh by the way, you can't commit suicide to get to this other life. Otherwise most religions would be a death cult.

Religious dogma is full of nonsense and logical contradictions. It makes no sense and has no real evidence to support it. So, it becomes a protected, extra special group of bad ideas that you better not question. Because it has no leg to stand on it must be very carefully protected from questioning.

All those other lies a society will promote to keep the rich and powerful, rich and powerful are also nonsense, illogical and lack evidenced. But they are frequently brought out for discussion.

But religion is supposed to be this intimate personal thing that must be respected. If you dare question my religious dogma, you are questioning me personally. You are questioning my feelings. And only I get to question my feelings.

Anyway that's what I think is happening. So, go ahead and criticize any religion. It needs it and it makes for a better society.

[kairos12]

31. Ali G gets them. LOL!

?si=PxXiPSE-sjhVDll_

He is my hero.

[DBoon]

34. Overwhelmingly, religion is the public sphere supports far right wing policies ..

... and encourages intolerance of outsiders.

There may be groups with progressive beliefs, but have nowhere near as visible or as powerful

There is no "true Christianity" - there is christianity as advocated by its most visible and politically powerful figures. That form of christianity emphasizes cruelty, punishment, intolerance, and absolute obedience .It is the same religion as present during the reign of Charlemagne, who ordered the massacre of Verden.

"True christianity" is the "no true Scotsman" fallacy.

[aka-chmeee]

35. It annoys me that on crime programs, or newspapers

When describing a crime, they say the victim was a "devout christian" implying that somehow makes the crime more heinous and the victim a greater loss.

[CTriverYankee]

36. Thank you for this.

My sentiments exactly. Sunday is just another day to me...

[notKeith]

38. Napolean said it best

Original quote:
La religion rattache au ciel une idée d'égalité qui empêche le riche d'être massacré par le pauvre.

Translated to English:
Religion attaches to heaven an idea of equality which prevents the rich from being massacred by the poor.

[byronius]

40. A bit of wisdom once taught to me --

— ‘be the vegan you would have wanted to meet before you became a vegan’.

I’m not a staunch atheist, and I’ve never been religious — but I try not to judge. Nonetheless— I’ve met the worst of religious authoritarians. The mullahs in downtown Dhahran who grabbed my 12 year old friend and dragged him into a building to roughly shave his head were the same to me as the various violent religious Americans I’ve met — absolutely absolutist, relatively insane, and cruel. The portion of the brain responsible for religious feelings has great biochemical power, and I feel badly for those who cannot escape or defray its complete hijacking of reason.

I’ve met perfectly lovely religious people — my grandmother for one. But I’m too familiar with the other side of the coin. Respect, certainly — always, until the shearing knives come out.

[GiqueCee]

41. I've long described religion as...

... the skeeziest weasel in the cave said to the biggest bully in the cave, "You be the government, and I'll be religion, and we'll have 'em by the short curlies 'til the end of time!"

[Shermanator]

46. Religion should be treated...

Like the cult it is.

[Sky Jewels]

61. Christianity is just a big death cult.

Especially the Roman Catholic sect. The crucifixion "art" displayed in most RCC churches is ... yikes. A lot of Catholic priests et al seem to get off on the sado-masochistic aspects of the mythology depicting suffering and death of the fictional magical character, Jesus.

[Demovictory9]

51. Nuns...tv shows always had characters apologize if cursibg around a nun..as if she was more delicate

Then all the horrors of those female workhouses came out..run by nuns...unpaid servitude for the crime if unwed pregnancy

[Act_of_Reparation]

60. Some of the most vicious, vituperative people I have ever met were nuns.

[Think. Again.]

53. Thanks for posting this.

[msongs]

54. gottta have that fear of hell to make people turn over their power and cash nt