Atheists & Agnostics
Related: About this forumAs an atheist, how do you feel about dead people, specifically, bluntly, dead bodies, including, ultimately, your own?
One of the books I'm reading - I'm way behind on reading in general, there's so much I want to read, so little time - is called "Origin: A Genetic History of the Americas" by Jennifer Raff.
A review of the book by another anthropologist, which is somewhat critical of it, is here: Jennifer Raffs Origin: A Genetic History of the AmericasA Review
The introduction, beyond which I haven't gone very far, begins with the tale of the discovery of a human mandible in a cave on Wales Island in Alaska. For page after page, Dr. Raff gives commentary on respect for the dead, the history of anthropologist's disrespect, genocide against native Americans, disrespect for the oral traditions of Native Americans, the role of oral traditions in anthropology and the effort to obtain permission to extract DNA from tribes of modern Native Americans etc., etc., etc., and so on and so on.
Eventually, after much discussion she remarks that ultimately scientists obtained "permission" to analyze the mandible with scientific instrumentation, a "proper burial" for a person whose bones were scattered across the cave by animals who apparently ate his dead body is arranged, this after he is given a name, Shuká Káa, translated from a language he may or may not have spoke or be related to the language he spoke, as "Man ahead of us." Whenever his bones are discussed thereafter, this name is used, as if he were a person who exists. The funeral, probably religious in nature, although there is no discussion of that, indicated "respect" for his bones.
If I sound dismissive of the appalling history of the conquest of the so called "New World" it's not intended; I fully acknowledge that as is very common in all cases where one people's tribe displaces another, whether the "tribe" in question is millions of British, French, or Spanish Europeans, or an Inuit group of a few thousands, genocide is, more often than not, practiced, sometimes explicitly, usually by designating the original inhabitants of the conquered Lebensraum as somehow subhuman, less "human" than the conquerors themselves, "savages" or worse. Hitler intended for all the Slavs in the former Soviet Union to starve to death, and the US government in the 19th century began shooting bison indiscriminately to make Plains Native Americans starve as well. Hitler admired the United States for that history, starving the conquered, as well as its Jim Crow apartheid and before that, human slavery, which he practiced himself. These are facts. They cannot be changed. The people who performed these acts of committing genocide, the actual physical killers, did so in airs of self justification, even positive self regard, no matter how we now detest what they did from our current cultural matrix, some of us at least.
History can not be corrected and made better; it can only be described in ways that are a function, ethically, in the terms of the moral purview, such as moral purviews exist, of the historian's society and not the society of the perpetrators. This is not an excuse for horror; ideally it is part of a path for a culture, all cultures in fits and starts, to rise to a higher level of decency, which I define as respect for the living as opposed to the dead.
A point:
In analytical molecular biology, generally using mass spectrometry, we often need "blanks" of human tissue, usually blood, serum or plasma, but often tissues obtained from cadavers or surgical tissue, presumably all of which has been "ethically" obtained. One of the most difficult blanks to obtain, for the development of treatments for serious eye diseases, is vitreous fluid. I've been there, done that. Presumably these tissues are obtained "ethically," but in all cases they are extremely expensive and hard to get. Dead bodies are valuable in this sense, and the tissues can be instrumental in improving the lives of the living. If this sounds like a form of cannibalism, it cannot be avoided.
Every once in a while my wife and I discuss what she should do with my body after I kick off, which I hope to do before she kicks off, since it would be much harder for me to live without her than for her to live without me. My favorite idea - which might be too expensive - would be composting, since I'm concerned about phosphorous flows, but another is donating my body to a medical school or to a tissue bank. Being a skeleton in a classroom sounds like fun. Having my tissues distributed to labs around the country and the world also seems perfectly reasonable to me. I rather like the idea. All that said, I've worked to inform my wife that it really won't matter to me no matter what she decides since I won't exist in any form other than her memory, the memory of my sons, my friends, my relatives. She should do whatever makes her feel comfortable. Cremation is fine; I won't feel a thing.
When I visited my son some years back to discuss his further graduate school plans, to offer my advice and to discuss the institutions and the faculties therein to which he might (and did) apply, I took him out to dinner, whereupon I got a little emotional: I made sure to discuss with him that I was mortal, and that the only place I will exist after "shuffling off my mortal coil" will be in him, his brother, his mother and a few other people. I told him that therefore, if he wanted to honor me after I'm gone, doing so will involve nothing more than living an honorable life himself, and to give as much to humanity as he can, until he himself, sets off on the road of dying twice.
Here's what I think about dying "twice: "
One dies twice, physiologically, and then a second time when the last person to remember you dies themselves, and afterwards, there are only artifacts for a while, and finally a precious and deserved oblivion. The flesh doesn't matter; there is nothing to "respect" since the flesh is no longer a human being. I say, "do what one will with it," it's a form of matter no different than a piece of driftwood at sea.
I'd be interested in the thoughts of other atheists in this respect.
For fathers here, I wish a happiest of father's days.
Srkdqltr
(10,100 posts)I dont go to graves , although I do think of my daughter in law and mention her when I pass the cemetery. Her grave site is very visible.
We talk about her with her daughter.
no_hypocrisy
(55,670 posts)your body is stripped, left up in the branches of a tree or a cactus and let the buzzards feed. It seemed ecological and circular.
But now considering the impracticality of my original intent, I'm going to be composted. I like the idea of growing nature on my decayed body.
I think that buying caskets and a burial plot that no one will eventually visit is a consumer scam.
duckworth969
(1,444 posts)My oldest daughter already has my financial and medical POA.
She thanked me for getting all the nuts and bolts ready for her to administrate the details when the times comes.
Felt good to do it now rather than to put her in the position of having to wade through my personal papers.
Itll be tough enough for her during the aftermath of my death.
No brain activity? Turn the machine off sweetheart and let yer pa go.
WmChris
(819 posts)I've already prearranged and paid for whatever is left after I move out of this flesh filled bag of skin to be donated to University of Iowa. They can do with it as they choose then throw what's left in the toaster oven. My wife can do whatever she decides with the ashes.
1WorldHope
(2,217 posts)I myself am fascinated with death. As in the dead body and what happens on a molecular level.
I wish I were more accepting of the history of conquer between cultures. I understand that the big picture is really big. But, I just can't let go of what humans have done to nature and the cultures who have lived in harmony with it. I am not as well educated as you sound, so believe me, I am probably not capable debating anything with you.
I am probably more agnostic than atheist. But not because I know the secret to life. More because I am not strong enough to get through this life expecting total annihilation. I agree with what you speak of and I love your description of two deaths. I also love your story of the hard conversation you had with your kids.
I live as if this is a one time gig in daily life, or at least I try to, but somewhere in my being, probably my ego, I want to believe our consciousness lives on, never losing those we love so dearly.
Thanks for the interesting conversation over my morning coffee.
CivicGrief
(384 posts)after he was dead, and he said something along the lines of, "what do I care what you do with my body?"
littlemissmartypants
(35,373 posts)For others, as a student and former teacher of anatomy and physiology, I respect the bodies of the deceased as sacred tools for the perpetuation of science toward knowledge for health and healing.
stopdiggin
(15,809 posts)(but unfortunately just do not have the time this AM)
Broad brush strokes of agreement. Both for 'bodies' (both my own poor vessel, and others in general). It's almost completely immaterial to me. Do what you will - or alternatively nothing at all (because why should some other poor schmuck be saddled with the honor and 'privilege'?). My own dismissive cant running along the line for years, "And you can tumble me into a ditch ..." (with of course the sanitary and pollution issues as standing as obvious prevention) Rather vague thoughts of 'donating' - and greatly appreciate the notion imparted and stressed here of the human body as a quite valuable resource. Yes! By all means!
Also broad agreement on the 'anthropological' and cultural aspect. One can (and should attempt to) be sensitive and respectful ... But there are also limitations - and frankly logical and factual absurdities ... Discovery of a mandible (or single tooth) in a washed out creek bed - that proves to be 6, 7, 8-12 hundred years old - is quite frankly not the same thing as someone digging up Grandma. And the farther removed in terms of either personal memories, ancestry, and any baseline lineage ... The less rational a claim becomes for either ownership, or cultural authority (or in fact 'appropriation' - going in either direction?) So - sensitivities, yes. Blind adherence to fallacy and the unproven - in support of purported tradition and 'belief' .. ? Who is imposing a 'value system' .. ?
LogDog75
(1,447 posts)I believe a body should be treated with respect. That is, it shouldn't be mistreated or desecrated because someone didn't like the person.
Persons who donate their body for study, organ donations, etc.. should have their bodies treated with respect and according to their wishes if their wishes were made known.
Burials and cremations serve dual purposes. First, it's a way to dispose of the body in a respectful manner. Second, they serve as a way for the living come to terms with the loss of a loved one, friend, or acquaintance. Burials and visits to a grave allows people to maintain a connection, often emotional, to someone who has died. A cremation helps sever the connection to the one who has died and allow them to accept their death.
I am an atheist and I've had parents, siblings, friends, and acquaintances who've died. Family members were cremated and other buried but I've accepted their deaths and I'm able to move on. I believe everyone goes through a period of mourning based upon how close and emotionally connected they are to the person. The closer they're connected the longer the mourning period is and vice versa.
mike_c
(37,160 posts)"I" am electrochemical interactions in a kilogram or so of (muchly) cholesterol. The rest is just meat. To me, the really interesting part is that those electrochem interactions produce self awareness, cognition, language, and cheap plastic doodads from China. After that's gone, there's just thermodynamics. Everything decays.
cachukis
(4,166 posts)all time, died unnoticed. They did not seek power.
They sought a good meal and developed a regularity of good meals. They enjoyed a modicum of hedonism, when time allowed.
They advanced a thought process to maintain a preparedness for emergency working to keep emergency at bay.
Some fell prey to pride unaware of the lessons learned from their falls. Regardless, they left no monuments.
Still, recognizing the evolution of our minds requires a thought about the experiences of our forbears. Hence, a passing nod will embellish a self respect of the human experience.
As to attention to remains, learning about the connections between matter and energy seems an admirable choice. Dust to dust is going to happen
Some say we are merely a receptor of a consciousness from long ago, but without the catalyst to examine, it becomes moot.
If we have a soul that is supposed to be alert through eternity, why are there so many gaps of nothing?
Thoughts of mortality are not morbid for me. Enjoying the time left, not anxious to go. But death is not fixable and ultimately forgetable.