A plea to ignore the flame bait

[BainsBane]

There are certain stories posted to GD for the clear purpose of inciting flame wars between feminists and anti-feminists. I encourage everyone in HOF and anyone else who is sick of that stuff to ignore the threads. Don't feed into the nonsense that serves no purpose other than to distract from the issues that most concern feminists and all DUers.

Now, I don't claim to be immune from having posted stuff that resulted in massive flame wars. In some cases I had a specific point to make and decided the ensuing flame was worth it. In others I had not anticipated the controversy. I am not especially good at telling in advance what will attract attention, but some members are. One thing I have learned is that it serves no good having the same discussions endlessly with people who do not care about how you feel. So let's not indulge them. Okay? Without us, those threads will fall like rocks because there is only so much the anti-feminists can do without our participation. If they talk shit about us, so what? Trash the thread and the shit becomes theirs alone.

Edited to add: I'm well aware I'm making a plea to myself here as much as anyone else.

[seabeyond]

1. i did ignore the flamefest of the OP. BUT, i am not going ot be quiet when a poster says sexual

assault laws are a fuckin slippery slope. wtf is that? the bullshit demanding, insisting, bullying, insulting, and personal attacks to demand i participate in a discussion i have no desire to participate in though, should clearly be against our community standard.

[BainsBane]

3. That's your choice

but you know it makes no difference what you say. Law abiding people know that those laws exist for a reason. People that have issues with them have problems far beyond anything you can address, and they don't care what you say.

Anyway, I see those OPs as being purposefully started to eat up people's energies in discussions that go no where. I am choosing not to participate further and sharing my views about them for others to consider or dismiss, as they see fit.

[xulamaude]

2. Let them post thier bait - we (you, me, anybody)

can pick it up or walk away...

Stupid shit is not always obvious.

ETA - stupid shit is sometimes best pointed out by people who know what they're talking about

[BainsBane]

4. As long as people realize those threads are set up

for a clear purpose that has nothing to do with advancing feminism or encouraging thoughtful dialog.

[xulamaude]

10. Yes, of course.

I find myself wondering if anyone can take 'them' seriously, the whole... shtick... is so transparent.

But that's me.

[ismnotwasm]

5. I almost always do

I trash threads left and right when it gets bad

Well Hell, I peaked and sent one off right away

[BainsBane]

7. Yes, you are far better than I at it

I'm addressing myself as much as anyone else.

[redqueen]

6. On the other hand...

http://jezebel.com/dont-ignore-the-trolls-feed-them-until-they-explode-977453815
http://freethoughtblogs.com/almostdiamonds/2012/02/28/dont-feed-the-trolls-is-bad-science/

[BainsBane]

8. The other point is

They alert on every thing we post in hopes that we get to five hides and can't post on DU for a long while.
Several of us have been sent jury results from failed alerts.

[seabeyond]

11. yes. many alerts were flying on that thread. i got pms... i alerted on none, yet,

they were the ones hurling personal attacks and insults. correct.

[BainsBane]

12. There is almost no point alerting

Their insults are allowed to stand, where simply expressing our views, without insults, get hidden. Someone told me a recent post of mine was hidden for obliquely suggesting someone hated women. I have since alerted on three posts in HOF where a member directly accused a female member of hating men. None were hidden.

[seabeyond]

13. yup. nt

[ismnotwasm]

9. Depending on who the OP is by and what the subject matter is

I agree. Even on DU


But also, On DU, the same old crap gets recycled when there are other venues with productive argument.

[BainsBane]

14. Also keep in mind that if we post OPs that focus on what we care about

We can better control the content of the discussion. Not entirely, of course, but we can help keep it on more serious examples of problems like sexual assault.

[redqueen]

18. Thing is, though, even in the stupidest most meaningless threads,

there's often the chance for insightful discussion.

Take the 'oh noes! they banned bigfoot pron!' thread.

In there I had the opportunity to correct the misconception that "prudery" was the cause of twisted, disturbed pornography... And in another post someone pointed out that plenty of sexual violence occurs when someone imposes their twisted version of a 'fantasy' on their partner.

Then again, maybe that op wasn't the type you had in mind, not sure...

[BainsBane]

19. no, it wasn't.

The one I had in mind is from a certain poster who makes a point of posting the same kinds of stories that result in flame wars between men and women, feminists and anti-feminists.

[seabeyond]

20. but again. they thru up the picture from 40's. 3 or 4 others came in and made the point. it is

not just the small group they claim, that see it in the picture. without one person speaking out, maybe no one would have. and it would have been left standing that the small minority saw that in the picture.

i get what you are saying. but, some things cant be left standing without speaking out. the OP was bullshit. i agree.

[redqueen]

23. That thread is fucking hilarious.

I have to wonder if they honestly think anyone doesn't see right through them.

[seabeyond]

31. is pretty in the face obvious. dontcha think? i do. i think it was all well spelled out thruout. nt

[redqueen]

22. LOL, yep..

I think I found it. And yeah, people have no illusions about the intent behind it apparently.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

15. it would be very ineresting to see some demograhics and information compiled from

all the jury results over the past couple of years. Surely, by now, some trends could be detected and some analysis compiled.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

16. If they talk shit about us, so what?

I really do have to laugh at all this considering that there is a certain thread I am not allowed to
participate/defend/discuss/argue/debate even if I wanted to do so.

I don't know about y'all but, the hypocrisy/irony in that is so Rich ...

and does Skinner really expect me to take this place seriously and actually support this site with my very hard earned FEMALE dollars?

does he really think that?

[BainsBane]

17. A Democratic Party that is majority female and people of color

on a site that is not.

[seabeyond]

21. point. nt

[DonCoquixote]

24. Hell yes to this thread

when a simple K and R will not suffice.

Look, let's be real honest. People have been aware that the current policy is ripe for mischief. There are groups of people trying to tweak the juries so that someone gets the magic number of unrecs. What is worse is that many of these "jurists" do not even put their reasons down. Now, I can understand that some jurist do not want to get spammed with people going "You did not vote for my friend , so we will f**k you up, you Better Believe it!" However, I see Juries where the majority does not even add an explanation, then something smells fishy.

This applies to all issues, economic,LGBT, Feminist, you name it, there are people who want to squash dissent,and oddly enough, even when these folks make personal attacks, they never seem to get called out by Juries, especially if they were defending a point of view that is a bit centrist. I do worry, because I know that in 2014 and 2016, certain folks will already continue the great purge of anyone whose point of view differs from the majority.

[BainsBane]

25. I've had hides like that

with not a single juror comment. It's pretty clear what's going on. I think the administrators should require jurors to give a reason for hiding or leaving a post.

[DonCoquixote]

26. I know I am not Skinner

But if I was, I would make it MANDATORY that people leave comments when they vote. Even if it is a grunting "I disagree with the complaint." This at least allows for accountability. If you cannot explain how you decided someone's fate, you have NO buisness deciding anyone's fate.

[BainsBane]

27. yes, but the site administrators appear to be comfortable with those standards

If they were not, they would do something about it. In the meantime, there are fewer and fewer people of color on this site. Muslims in particular are very rare. The few who do post tend to feel very alienated. African Americans are a small percentage of posters here, while women are increasingly leaving. The site is moving further and further away from the demographic make up not only of the Democratic party but of the United States as a whole. Agschmid did a poll the other day that showed that about 60% of respondents were male. Obviously DU polls are not scientific, but it may reflect the make up of the most active members of the site.

[Squinch]

36. ^^^Sadly, true. Soon we'll have to change the site name to "Sigma Chi."

[cinnabonbon]

28. I know your post is about not fighting them

but I just had to step in and say thank you for standing up, anyway! I was one of those readers that never posted, but seeing you folks stand up to the rape apologists finally made me create a username here. The things they said have no place in a liberal forum! So it was so nice to see people explain it to them, even though they were too dense to get it.

Anyway. Thank you.

[boston bean]

29. Welcome to DU. Thanks for signing up.

Hope to see you around!

[cinnabonbon]

38. thanks!

I've been a quiet reader since the Bush years, so I should have definitely signed up before now -because I've wanted to! Looking forward to getting involved.

[seabeyond]

32. a second welcome. and yes. that one effect my thinking process. i saw a psa yesterday and

instead of seeing how it was intended to reach the audience, i saw it from the mans eye that gets off on rape. anger escalates. i think that will be one that stays with me for too long. and not enough men got into those threads to reject be appalled by rape porn. so it taints men as a whole. that one was not good.

[cinnabonbon]

39. I know the feeling

It's maddening. And the strawmen they put up are so annoying.

The worst part is that some guys just can't understand why women end up feeling like every guy is a "schroediger's rapist" - but it's because they defend stuff like extremely realistic rape porn! They come across as way less trustworthy and decent than others because of it.

And thanks for the welcome, Sea!

[redqueen]

42. Glad you've decided to start posting!

And you're so right.

How many men said nothing about rape porn? How many couched their disapproval with 'well I don't like it' as if that matters.

It's great that you don't get off watching women suffering. How about you stand up and add your voice to the chorus of those saying it's wrong? Or do you think it's OK and whatever floats your boat?

[cinnabonbon]

43. I've been looking forward to it!

Exactly! I mean, I understand that they don't want to get involved, but the action of being "neutral" has repercussions for the powerless party in the situation. When people prefer to stay in the silent majority, they are basically supporting the structure that is already at work, since they're doing nothing to improve on it. For example, if a bully hurts a smaller kid, staying silent supports the bully, not the victim. It doesn't matter if the person doesn't *want* to get involved.

When it comes to rape porn, saying "well, it's not my kink, not my problem," is not helping. It's not showing support to the survivors in our mids either. For a community that's supposed to care about democratic ideas, women's rights, minorities right, LBGT rights, equality, that is a very curious stance to take.

A lot of these people are saying "omg, you want to ban it! My rights!" but I haven't seen anyone do that? I wanted to see people speak up and talk about the problematic nature of this, not ban it. I wanted to see people say "That is not good. What can we do to prevent fictional "rape porn" from turning into a channel for rapists to genuinely rape people and show it online? "

or

"This is really disrespectful and hurtful to the community members of ours that has suffered this, maybe we shouldn't gleefully throw it in their face."

But no. Of course that didn't happen.

[seabeyond]

44. WE talk about the problems with it. they cannot answer that. will not answer. because then it is

no longer pretty, acceptable, ok. they cannot face that. what would that make them. so they reduce our argument to.... you may not say it, but you are saying ban.

they cannot discuss the problem of it. it will not be wrapped up all pretty woman in a bow and easily disgestable if they did that.

[cinnabonbon]

45. I am glad we talk about it, at least.

It just sucks that they're actually trying to silence people. They don't like the problem, simply because they're being told where they contribute to it. A better response would be to go "I didn't realize I had a part in it. How can I change that?"

Instead I see petty derailing of important issues, because their feelings are way more important than a survivor's safety in a group she considered her allies. We both know that even if the problem was prettied up and made harmless-looking for them so it wouldn't offend their delicate sensibilities, they would still find a reason to sweep it under the rug.

I really wish there was some way to label people on DU (based on their own admission), so I'd know who not to engage. Like "this is john, he thinks rape is an erotic act, not an act of violence," "This is Mike, he believes that adults should be able to have sex with children" etc. Would save me a lot of time and heartache.

[seabeyond]

46. i would be ok with... k, you are right. and i am still gonna watch. lol.

that would shut me up fast, cause, where do you do you go from their. we have our choices. if a person honestly admits to the issue and still wants it in their life, that is as far as i go

it is like with pot. when i was young. my mom told me all the people that smoke it, may not be hurting self. but, they are contributing to the problem. my demand is creating the cartels, and the whole set up of a lot of pain and death for a lot of people.

i could not argue that. it is true. i get my part in it.

and i still smoked pot

[cinnabonbon]

47. Haha.

well, I would like it, only because it would give me a chance to protect myself against people who would protect predators or are sexual predators themselves. I don't need guys like that in my life, for obvious reasons. Personal choices, like "smoked pot, had an abortion, had SIXTEEN boyfriends!!...." I would hope stuff like that wouldn't be used against people. But I'm sure it would, eventually. Sigh.

The difference is that you own up to it. You know what's going on, and you said "I know it's wrong" which is more than we got from the others earlier. They were denying everything as if denial was going out of style.

[Squinch]

30. I see what you mean, but it's hard to let some of these statements pass. Would it be

effective if everyone here wrote something like "obvious flame bait, trashing thread" before trashing, so at least the obvious is pointed out?

[ismnotwasm]

33. I think it's up to the individual

Posters like both BB's and Redqueen and Sea take certain topics on and do a great job. I'll only do it if they come here, or if I think they have something say, but not the ability or perhaps the desire--to adequately express themselves or occasionally when the assholism quotient is so high I feel obligated. There are a few I will guarantee are icky MRA trolls

Not every topic starts out as flame bait, and I accept that, but there's trigger words like porn, prostitution, etc. that it's impossible to have a decent debate over.

There's one little cheerleader I find exceptionally appalling, and there is just no way for me to ever be pleasant to that person. So I never engage them.

[Squinch]

35. There are more than one that I can't stand. We do have an MRA fundamentalist kaffee klatsch here.

But some posts, like the post that I think sparked this OP, are such an obvious and lame bait that I think it's not a bad idea to give them a shoulder.

PS: that would include just about everything from the poster I think BainsBaine is referring to.

[BainsBane]

48. I'd be interested to know who that one is

I finally put the one who plants much of the flame bait on ignore. That solves that particular problem.

[Sheldon Cooper]

34. Once again, my choice to Ignore all the jagoffs seems to have paid off.

I have no idea what thread you're referencing, but by the various descriptions provided here, I have a pretty good guess as to who started it.

I like Squinch's suggestion below: post in the thread with something like "obvious flamebait, trashing" so they know you're on to their bullshit. And then trash the thread. There is a concerted effort by a handful of people to get us all kicked off - it is their mission and as usual the administration here turns a blind eye to it.

[seabeyond]

37. i listen to you all, and i still cant. when someone says sexual assault laws are a "slippery slope"

i gotta call it out. or else why am i here. i know. i know the whole Op was a stupid ass game. i gotta wonder how quickly the men gathered. t he alerts flying. if this was not conserted. you know... a giggle oh.... got this OP. everyone ready? and alert. everyone in place. it was all like... so orchestrated. but what was especially interesting was the obvious of one poster to demand, insist, throw a tantrum, name call, verbally abuse to MAKE me answer a question i had no interest in answering. i have never seen anything like that and i have been on du for a while. it may take a couple no's with some men on this board. but... this poster, refused to take a no. he did every immature, boy bullying tactic to shame me into answering. truly interesting i thought.

it is stay on point. it is when you start being drawn away form point, that it becomes ineffective. i walk into these threads with a point. knowledge of what i am wiling to discuss and what i am not. and it is not being drawn into an area i have no desire to go.

[ismnotwasm]

40. That's because you're a badass

[seabeyond]

41. ha. an irritant, lol. thanks. nt