Trans Women, Male Privilege, Socialisation, and Feminism

[boston bean]

There is a common refrain among some trans activists that male privilege either does not exist or is insignificant to trans women's experiences. There is a common refrain among some radical feminists, largely trans exclusionary radical feminists, that trans women never lose male privilege at all and that male socialisation during childhood and adolescence is unavoidable, too deeply ingrained, and therefore constitutes a significant difference between female assigned at birth women (hereafter referred to as FAAB or cisgender) and trans women which would either render trans women "not-women" or call for their exclusion from women's spaces. I reject both of these assertions as fundamentally flawed.

Male privilege exists. It is real. Trans women may not have it during periods of female presentation, but this does not mean it does not exist during those periods of male presentation. To argue otherwise is absurd. One need not enjoy privilege or feel comfortable with privilege for privilege to exist. Nor is this experience of privilege insignificant. A trans woman's own experience should be evidence enough of its significance, for it is one of the many ways in which she is shoved into a gender which is not her own. A trans woman may fight male privilege's application to her person, but she cannot stop it from being offered initially, nor can she succeed at all times in preventing its application against her will. It is still privilege, even though it may sound like oppression, because it is one which as at an intersection of lacking cisgender privilege. That intersection does not erase the fact that it is still privilege. If she is presenting as male and she keeps her mouth shut, she can benefit from male privilege. And no doubt she has done so at some point in her life. In order to move the discourse forward, this is a fact that trans women, and especially so-called trans activists (who claim to speak for all of us) must understand and embrace as true. Otherwise there can be no place for trans activists (as separated from trans activism) in feminism.


Is this lived experience of sometimes having or gaining from male privilege, but finding it painful, significantly and radically different from the experience of never having and never gaining from male privilege as experienced by cisgender women? In order to answer this meaningfully, we need to set our goalposts. Terms like "significantly" and "radically" are relative. If we lived in a world where our only basis for comparison was cis women and trans women, then yes, this lived experience of sometimes having or gaining from male privilege most certainly would be significantly and radically different. However, we do not live in such a world, and our goalposts need to compare both cis women's lived experiences and trans women's lived experiences to cis men's lived experiences (and trans men's lived experiences. Although not the topic of this article, trans men's experiences are often closer themselves to women's experiences in comparison to cis men's, as so many men's spaces consider trans men to be women, or at least, "non-men&quot . When we look at that comparison, we begin to see that we have more in common than we do not.


Yet there is an objection to this assertion that cis women and trans women share more lived experiences than trans women share with cis men. What about male socialisation, the objector asks, isn't any period of time being socialised as a male automatically placing that individual in one category while those who were not are placed in another category? We can do that grammatically, in that we can construct a sentence whereby we create such categories, but it does not reflect reality. The lived experience of a trans woman, or a trans girl as is more often than not the case, is not the same as that of a cis man/boy. Cis boys do not cry themselves to sleep wishing they were girls. Cis boys do not start arguments with authority figures over being thought of and addressed as boys as some trans girls do. Cis boys do not worry that their "manly" gender performances will be revealed to be fraudulent because they're actually girls as other trans girls do. These experiences are experiences that clearly separate trans girls from cis boys, and therefore separate trans women from cis men.

http://groupthink.jezebel.com/trans-women-male-privilege-socialisation-and-feminis-472949124

[cinnabonbon]

1. I agree that trans women has a place in feminism

Even though they might have been raised as male, and may have adopted some male-privilegy entitlements. Mostly though? They are women and have seen how society treats women.

On the other hand, trans men that wants to be heard in feminism is more problematic. Once they're embracing their new male privilege they tend to speak over women, and I've seen some argue that they're allowed to do so because they've been there. I don't think that is okay.

[boston bean]

4. I don't think that is a huge issue, is it really? Is it just a personal anecdote?

I think that trans men can understand, having been born a biologically a woman.

[cinnabonbon]

5. It became a problem in one of the groups I used to be in. So just an adecdote.

It was as if they got drunk on the new privilege, or something. Started to say they could call women misogynistic slurs because they were "reclaiming" them. I don't want to believe it is a widespread thing.

[Warren Stupidity]

2. "Trans women may not have it during periods of female presentation"

as the father of a trans woman, I can assure you that what my daughter "has during female presentation", which in itself is a massively bigoted phrase, is the opposite of male privilege.

[boston bean]

3. I think maybe you misread the context and the author is saying what you have said.

Also, these things are hard to put into words, but in trying to do so, we might just want to give the people who are discussing them a bit of lee way. This article was written by a trans woman.

[cinnabonbon]

6. That is what the sentence means

When the world sees her as a woman, they treat her as a woman. So, she doesn't benefit from male privilege.

[Warren Stupidity]

14. there are two problems with this:

First, she doesn't have a choice about how the world sees her. She cannot, for example, "choose" to go to a job interview as a man. Second, in addition to not benefiting from male privilege she is subject to transphobic discrimination as a trans woman.

[boston bean]

17. Warren, I think the writer meant before transition.

Or for those who pass as both male or female.

It's wasn't an all or nothing statement, at least how I understood after reading the entire article. Your points though do remain in that once transitioned there is no just going to an interview as a man, and that transphobia is another bigotry she must face. It's really very disturbing and sad to see human beings hurt in this manner.

[cinnabonbon]

20. sorry, I feel a rant coming. I get the feeling I'm preaching to the choir, though.

Those are good points and I think we agree. No one can choose their gender, and saying that trans people can do that is offensive. (And worse, it can fuel the horrible "if you can choose your gender it means it's just a phase, go to the shrink and you'll soon feel better about the gender God chose for you" thing.)

As for whether or not people internalize their male privilege, would you agree with me if I said that I believe it relies on the person?

A person that is able to transition early obviously has a different experience than those who try to live as the wrong gender, because it's expected of them, and then forty years later they finally come out to their families. The latter is going to cling to gender roles because they believe they have no choice, and is scared of being found out. They might also subconsciously internalize a lot of harmful patriarchal ideas (just like cis women and men do when they're raised in conservative families). Whereas someone who transitions early will be met with transphobic awfulness at unexpected turns, and not really get to benefit from, say, male privilege because this society is openly hostile to people who doesn't fit into the binary.

But both of these people will have been trans all along, and they have both been hurt by transphobic attitudes in their lives, no matter how early they transition. If we're going to talk about privilege and oppression, it's really important to keep that in mind and not just focus on whether they have male privilege or not.

[Warren Stupidity]

22. maybe I'm being oversensitive and looking for worst possible interpretations

recent experiences I can't share have made me far more aware of what a tough life this is.

[cinnabonbon]

23. No, it's understandable

Once you grow familiar with oppression, you start seeing how it interlaces through your life. It's not being 'oversensitive', it's being observant.

[cinnabonbon]

12. PS

I hope your daughter is doing well. Coming out as trans is a terrifying experience, and it's so good to see that she has such a supportive parent.

[Warren Stupidity]

15. we do our best.

But mostly doing our best is easy: accept and support and love, what is easier than that? It takes far more effort to not do any of those things. She is a very brave person.

[cinnabonbon]

16. It is much easier to accept yourself

when your parents show you how it's done. There are too many that tries to fix their children when they find out their trans, and the damage they do to their minds is terrible.

I have to agree with you that she's brave, and we need more people like that. Tell her that she rocks from me!

[gollygee]

7. Trans women might get male privilege in some cases

but people can often tell there's something different about them, though they might not be able to tell specifically what, but they end up with a lot of difficulties growing up because of that. I think a lot of the male socialization they get is probably bullying.

[ismnotwasm]

8. I only have anecdotal experiences of a friend

So, while it's psychologically freeing and healthy to live as a gender one identifies with, I can only compare the experience of being Trans as "coming out" Gay to hostile relatives with severe religious bias.
Any M-F or F-M who goes through this experience is not going to be supported by far, far too many in society. They will be seen as " freaks"

When you are a woman, something that's been a part of your psychological make-up but not your physical one, to throw off shackles of incorrect gender quite possibly blinds you to the drawbacks of male privilege because your inner turmoil is so great.

All That being said, F-M Trans are "trained" to be female, clothing, shoes, hair make up, the way you walk.

One of the issues my friends has in the Trans community is how easily she "passes"-- she's 5'9" not 6'2" and had a petite frame, no one would look at her and say "she looks like a man"--she feels this causes jealousy in the Trans community she is a part of, because so many do NOT "pass". This has caused her to withdraw from the Trans community and support groups she was part of.

This is also the part of being Trans that exposes how great gender physical expectations actually are, and how ingrained they are. That in itself is an argument for male privilege. Expectations are different for women seen as attractive and "feminine"

As far as privilege, she doesn't deny it, but she hasn't had the full experiences of not having it. However, this is a decorated combat Vietnam war veteran who was one in of the worst battles in that wars history. She has PTSD. She does color guard sometimrs and simply redirects awkward questions. She doesn't say "I was a woman then, I just had no other option except to live in a mans body".

She is more than happy to discuss feminisms with me, but interestingly enough, she's more likely to talk about her war experiences.

So I think the Trans community may use denial of male privilege as a kind of protective coloring-- this is difficult path to take, surgery or no surgery.

And there ARE Trans feminists who are very aware of male privilege, and I appreciate their input very much.

[cinnabonbon]

13. Passing is so important

I think a lot of the suicidal phases people go through is because they get the feeling they'll never be able to really pass, despite all the painful surgery. And well, the way they're treated by society at large certainly doesn't help.

I'm glad your friend doesn't have trouble passing. Still, it really sucks that she got isolated from her safe space because of it. That's unfair.

[ismnotwasm]

19. I agree

The societal standards for "passing" must be heartbreaking for those with certain body types. It's incredibly unfair.

I'm not as familiar with Male Trans folk. I had a patient one time, nor tall or large, balding with a very full beard, looked very masculine. I had no idea until I had to do some intimate care and found female genitalia. He was content to live his life as a male without further surgery

Edit: one other thing about my friend is that she is a grey haired middle aged woman, or I should say she gets to be a grey haired middle aged woman. She keeps her hair in a short style-- in other words, she doesn't have to grow her hair long and dye it as so many others do for a "feminine" look. And she's perfectly content being middle aged.

[MadrasT]

18. It upsets me that we live in a world

that is so rigidly gender-binary that worrying about "passing" as a "legitimate woman" or "legitimate man" causes anyone in the world a moment of anxiety.

This is one of those things that as a nongendered person I absolutely cannot comprehend... but I have so much compassion for the trans* people who live with this anxiety every day.

[cinnabonbon]

21. Yes. I agree so much with what you're saying.

[ismnotwasm]

9. While I'm at it here are radical Transfeminist tumblers

Transradfem and Transcultist-- both worth following as they have very good insights

[Sheldon Cooper]

11. Thanks for the Tumblr recs!

I appreciate being able to learn about issues from tumblr blogs. I am woefully uneducated on trans issues, and I rarely participate in the trans discussions here. I am afraid of inadvertantly saying something stupid or hurtful.

[redqueen]

10. Great article.

This part is especially enlightening:

"In order to move the discourse forward, this is a fact that trans women, and especially so-called trans activists (who claim to speak for all of us) must understand and embrace as true."

The internet enables malicious, dishonest, manipulative people to engage in a lot of bullshit. I'll just leave it at that.

[nomorenomore08]

24. Very thought-provoking article about a subject that, for the most part, is utterly foreign to me.

Sure I've experienced discomfort with male gender roles, being a cis-man, but I can't imagine what being born in the wrong body would feel like - not to be insensitive, but it almost strikes me as being like some Cronenberg-esque body horror.

[One_Life_To_Give]

25. Insignificance - Talk about driving a truck thru a loophole

For the moment I will put aside the Women born Women contingent at Michigan.

I have read of transitions where the age was under 10 to over 70. That is an awfully wide range to decide if the privilege was significant or not. More importantly when I look at someone who transitioned 45 years ago. I don't think any remnants of male privileged are going to be significant compared to a lifetime of being viewed and treated as a woman. And as we continue to pursue earlier and more effective treatments, I think you will find less and less difference.

On the other hand the Trans community represents a potential wealth of knowledge and a bridge between genders. People who can shed light not only on what we know we don't know. But the more dangerous unknowns that we havn't learned we don't know yet.

[Dash87]

26. There is also cis-privilege, if you think about it.

Cis-gendered men and women have privilege when compared to transgendered people. Society is still not very accepting of them and there is a social (and still very accepted) stigma.

[boston bean]

27. That is covered in depth in the article as well.