History of Feminism
Related: About this forumThe extremist movement known as MGTOW
The Men Going Their Own Way movement is an offshoot of the Men's Rights extremist movement,I had never heard of them before today.
http://www.mgtow.com/
Unlike Men's Rights Activists (MRAs), there is no necessity that MGTOWs engage in political activity or activism. MGTOWs may be active MRAs, they may cheer them on from the sidelines and send in donations or support, or they may not be politically active at all. There is a common point of awareness between various groups in the manosphere such as MRAs, MGTOWs, pick-up artists (PUAs) and reactionaries, yet how they react to the red pill differs considerably.
hort brief: the MGTOW rejects all form of long-term personal relationships with women, including but not limited to marriage, cohabitation of any sort which might be classified as common-law marriage, picking up for a single mother's children, or any action which might be used in court to turn him into her legal indentured servant.
Common reasons for this:
a) Massive risk incurred by men in pursuing this course of action in the form of chilamony and divorce theft, draconian domestic violence laws that follow the Duluth Model, being robbed of their children and having them alienated, all for no perceptible reason other than societal pressure and conditioning.
Resources withdrawn from society:
a) Intimacy and commitment that women desire, temporary or otherwise.
b) State-supported wealth transfers from men to women via the divorce, child support and domestic violence industries.
You may have heard of the marriage strike, in which large numbers of men are boycotting this rotten institution - either consciously or unconsciously, it does not matter. They're still out. A simple look through the manosphere wll turn up huge numbers of stories about men and children thrown through the family court meat grinder.
The effects of the marriage strike are interesting, and not just in the "where have all the good men gone?" "you're a sexist bastard if you don't have the hots for used-up sluts" and "man up and marry those single mothers like a good Christian man" articles. Men in general are leaving the plantation in droves - Dalrock has some interesting stats on remarriage and never-marrieds, and the stats do appear to be in line with many men adopting the stance.
Their forum,which is filled with so many misogynists that they had to pin warnings not to post violent videos or pictures:"Too many threads are being reported to us which contain blatant subliminal encouragement and support towards 'punchin bitches'. The main culprits appear to be new users. If you've joined here to play out your women beating fantasies then please do us all a favour and piss off now." and another pinned thread not to talk about rape:" I don't know how much more clear we can be on this, but seriously, do not post or attempt to start discussions on rape ANYWHERE on this forum. Our policy on rape is: WE DON'T WANT TO KNOW! And why? Well that's because we're MGTOW."
http://www.mgtowforums.com/forums/mgtow-general-discussion/
Their GD forum has 114 viewers right now. Yet it's the few PIV radfems that we really need to be "concerned" about.
redqueen
(115,173 posts)if a radical feminist site had women posting images and videos like that, or talked about doing something analogous to raping men? Cause obviously women who hate men as much as those men hate women wouldn't want to rape them even with someone else's parts.
Says a whole lot, about a whole lot of people.
MadrasT
(7,237 posts)That is some industrial strength hate right there. Wow, some of those threads are toxic.
If those men want to GTOW, great. Have a party. We won't miss you. Bye.
seaglass
(8,181 posts)MadrasT
(7,237 posts)The red pill meme is used in other circles... I have also seen it used to describe having achieved various sorts of "Enlightenment" in New Agey circles.
Anytime somebody uses "red pill" to mean "ohmygosh-i-am-so-enlightened-and-special-now" (with the unspoken bit being "and therefore better than you"), I just roll my eyes.
It's just (what they think is trendy) code for claiming moral/intellectual superiority.
Lame.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)But this certainly doesn't help.
Someone should remind these chaps that Neo wasn't a misogynist.
ismnotwasm
(42,482 posts)It sure did! I still watch the original now ans again though
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)Do they think they are punishing us by 'going their own way'? How can their withdrawal be seen as anything but positive for the rest of society?
phantom power
(25,966 posts)redqueen
(115,173 posts)Nay
(12,051 posts)it's not like the 'nice guy' pool gets smaller when they GTOW.There are many women who made the mistake of marrying one of these guys and ended up stalked and dead.
Also, many women have GTOW way before these guys thought up the term. They just quietly decided not to settle for an asshole, and didn't. Men can do the same if they like. It's not new for them, either -- there's a long history of the eligible bachelor/Romeo, etc., so I'm not exactly sure what they think is so radical and new.
ismnotwasm
(42,482 posts)Yeah they find an article from some wack job to cause shit, when there are multiple wack job men's movements to choose from. MRA's, PUA's, and others.
Could start posting about them in GD I suppose, but either there would be an indignant 'that's not how I am' or it would be ignored. Still, if we're going to discuss the disturbed, and have the more vocal feminist compared to crazy people, perhaps a few days of linking to MRA sites for comparison purposes isn't a bad idea.
redqueen
(115,173 posts)it's movements like this.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)UtahLib
(3,180 posts)they hold fast to their "principles" until they have marched their whiny little asses into oblivion, with no evidence whatsoever that they ever existed.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)They're going to have a wee problem creating new members of their group without women.
redqueen
(115,173 posts)As long as boys are raised thinking that women are objects and they are all supposed to get one just cause they're 'nice guys' and when they do get one she will of course behave as he expects her to (IOW, in this patriarchy, with all its attendant supporting messages)... and as long as feminists continue to challenge the patriarchy and further liberate women from its evil clutches... the inevitable backlash will ensure that plenty of embittered men are there to join in with the hate and general dipshittery.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Can't produce new boys without help from women.
(This is making the assumption that these morons actually do separate themselves from women. That's about as likely as people actually going Galt)
redqueen
(115,173 posts)won't personally create more. There are plenty of boys being born, and women helping to indoctrinate them, into this same patriarchal system.
MadrasT
(7,237 posts)The "grieving cycle" is especially hilarious.
Then there's the "Dating" subforum... though why Men who want to GTOW are writing about dating and exchanging advice mystifies me?
Oh geez... then there's the linked sites across the top of the page, e.g., "Gynocentrism.com" with gems like this:
Ah yes, in secret patriarchy meetings all over the known world scheming men got together to lay their nefarious plans to trap and enslave these innocent and delicate flowers of womanhood into the bonds, the cruel and tortuous chains of matrimony.
(where have we heard mock referrals to "secret patriarchy meetings" before... hmmmm???)
And the "Marriage Sucks!" subforum!!!
And my favorite at the moment, "Anectodals"
Lovely collection of lads, there.
Their GD forum has 145 viewers at the moment... wonder if the extra 31 all linked over from DU?
redqueen
(115,173 posts)I don't have the stomach to wade through the less amusing stuff myself, so thanks for sharing the hilarious stuff here.
Squinch
(53,316 posts)Response to sufrommich (Original post)
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Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)redqueen
(115,173 posts)while they so intently ignore these fucks.
Response to sufrommich (Original post)
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bravenak
(34,648 posts)Omg. I copied that bad boy for my personal wtfdu records.
randys1
(16,286 posts)If my mother was alive today, the same one who entertained Maya Angelou in our home in the 60's, she would tell these men to suck her dick
she had a bigger one than any of these assholes
bravenak
(34,648 posts)It may have been the actual author. Ok, here goes nothing:
Forty adult participants were interviewed for Adult Children of Parental Alienation Syndrome (by Amy Baker). The book has a lot of long and informative quotes from those interviews. During childhood, each of the 40 adult participants had an alienating parent (usually the mother) that manipulated them into unjustly hating (or pretending to hate) the targeted parent. Many participants said that they were frequently forced to make hateful or belittling comments to the targeted parent even though they secretly loved the targeted parent. The book gives a detailed explanation of each method the alienating parent used to manipulate or brainwash their children. The United States would become a better country if every targeted parent made their children read and talk to them about this book.
Many alienating parents manipulated their children into hating the targeted parent even though the married couple lived in the same home. The targeted parents are usually unaware of this hatred because the alienating parents and their children decide to keep their hatred a secret as long as the targeted parents (usually the father) stay in the marriage. One child secretly wanted his father to die. The targeted parent thought that his spouse and child were at home in another part of town, but the child was watching him (probably through a window) because the alienating parent told her son to secretly spy on his father. As an adult, the child finally told his father about the childhood spying, the secret hatred, and the other secrets.
In some marriages, the alienating parent made hateful or belittling comments to the targeted parent. In some of the openly hostile marriages, the children also made hateful or belittling comments to the targeted parent. During the marriage, children saw the alienating parent abuse the targeted parent (verbal abuse, emotional abuse, physical abuse, sexual abuse, or a combination of abuses). The author believes that many of the alienating parents had a personality disorder like narcissism (other disorders were named in the book). Family problems (including Parental Alienation Syndrome) affected the children. Nearly half of college-age adults struggle with a mental health disorder, from alcohol dependency to depression and anxiety. But only a quarter seek treatment (Young Adults Hit By Mental Health Issues, BaltimoreSun.com).
One reason marriage rates are decreasing is because more people are witnessing the divorces and the unhappy marriages of numerous family and friends. People that were older than 20 and had divorced parents were 33 percent less likely to ever get married (Research Suggests Children Of Divorce More Likely To End Their Own Marriages, UNews.Utah.edu). The percentage of people older than 18 that were currently married was 72 percent in 1960 and 51 percent in 2010 (Marriage Rate In America Drops Drastically, HuffingtonPost.com). According to U.S. Census Bureau statistics, in 1980 only 6 percent of men between 40 and 44 had never been married; in 2008 it was 16 percent (The Stigma Of The Never-Married Man, Details.com). Fifty-six percent (56%) of all men and 65 percent of men with bachelor degrees remained in their first marriage for at least 20 years (Only Half Of First Marriages Last 20 Years, Today.com). Two-thirds of all divorces are initiated by women (Debunking 10 Divorce Myths, Health.HowStuffWorks.com).
Fifty percent (50%) of the children born to married parents will see their parents divorce before they reach the age of 18 (Statistics on Children of Divorce in America, About.com). Custodial parents (usually the mother) can ignore child visitation orders because there is usually no punishment (Visitation Rights Must Be Enforced, Cleveland.com). One father was divorced, he had child visitation problems after the divorce, and he remarried the alienating parent because he wanted adequate contact with his child. Some mothers will ask the family court for an increase in child support payments if the fathers income increases significantly. A few websites like LegalZoom.com answer the question: Can I go after my ex-husbands new wifes income for more child support? The answer is that in limited circumstances the ex-wife would get an increase in child support payments.
Our data show that 4.5 million nonresident fathers who do not pay child support have no apparent financial reason to avoid this responsibility. None of these fathers are poor (Poor Dads Who Dont Pay Child Support, Urban.org). In 2008, nearly 25 percent of parents did not pay any court-ordered child support, and another 30 percent did not pay the full amount (Most Child-Support Payers Stiff Their Kids, CBSNews.com). Twenty-four percent (24%) of custodial mothers did not receive any court-ordered child support from fathers, and thirty-seven percent (37%) of custodial fathers did not receive any court-ordered child support from mothers (Child Support for Custodial Mothers and Fathers: 1991, page 6, Census.gov).
The primary reason for child support delinquency is child visitation problems. Another reason is a vindictive or unjust divorce process (The Family; Why Fathers Dont Pay Child Support, NYTimes.com). Men Who Broke (FathersForLife.org) has many stories of men that committed suicide because of enormous child support arrears or child visitation problems. Some fathers that are victims of Parental Alienation Syndrome pay the full amount of court-ordered child support, and some fathers that were treated well by their families do not pay the full amount of court-ordered child support. Fathers family court problems were explained extremely well in A Promise to Ourselves by Alec Baldwin (book) and Divorce Corp by Joseph Sorge (book and DVD).
When the children became adults that no longer lived with either parent, many alienating parents (usually the mother) would continue to prevent their children from establishing a relationship with the targeted parent. Many adult alienated children eventually had a positive relationship with the targeted parent. Many children will be permanently alienated from their fathers. Single divorced men with permanently alienated children and never-married men that never had children will be in a SIMILAR situation in their old age.
In-Home Care For Frail Childless Adults (Urban.org) reveals the percentage of frail older men (age 65 and older) living in the community that receive in-home care from paid help and unpaid help (family and friends). The information excludes men living in nursing homes and assisted living facilities. Frail unmarried older men with no children received help 50.4 percent of the time (37.9% unpaid help and 20.3% paid help). Frail older men (both married and unmarried) with two children received help 59.8 percent of the time (58.4% unpaid help and 9.3% paid help).
Nursing homes and assisted living facilities are alternatives to in-home care. Ohio nursing home and assisted living facility residents rated their overall satisfaction with the care they receive in the B+ range, according to a statewide survey by the Ohio Department of Aging (Ohio Nursing Home Residents Rate Facilities Well In State Survey, Cleveland.com). During old age, the entire Social Security payment of some fathers is confiscated by the government to pay child support (current and past-due). It does not matter if the child is an adult, if the debt was created decades ago, or if the father does not have another source of income (Child Support vs. Social Security, BankRate.com).
The emotional harassment that I experienced from an unexpected group of people (since 2001) is very similar to the parental alienation methods described in this book. Before I joined the Navy, I almost always worked minimum wage jobs (mostly in Atlanta, GA). My female Navy enlisted recruiter encouraged me to become a Navy Officer because she saw that I had a bachelors degree. I was too old to qualify for most officer job categories as a civilian. The age limits were higher for Navy enlisted personnel. I was interested in the officer program during my first several months of active duty, but I decided not to apply. For ten years (2001-2011), I was a Navy enlisted sailor on active duty in San Diego (CA). My significantly improved financial status caused women and society to change from not caring about my personal life to using emotional harassment to demand that I get a girlfriend and become a father.
I live alone, I have never been married, and I do not have any children. I used to have sex with women before I began practicing sexual abstinence. Effectiveness Of Family Planning Methods (CDC.gov) and Contraception (CDC.gov) reveal that the typical use failure rate for condoms is 18 pregnancies per 100 women per year (18 percent). Some single condom users want to wear two condoms at the same time. A few women that want to get pregnant will lie and say that male contraceptives are not needed because they are sterile or because they are using female contraceptives. I am happy practicing sexual abstinence and avoiding having a girlfriend because both plans allow me to avoid marriage and fatherhood. The percentage of women at the end of their childbearing years (the 40-44 age group) that have never given birth was 10 percent in 1976 and 18 percent in 2008 (Childlessness Up Among All Women, PewSocialTrends.org).
For the first time in my life (starting in 2001, when I was 32 years old), there was an extreme and coordinated effort to emotionally harass me at work and near my home. The emotional harassment continued after I moved from Atlanta (GA) to San Diego (CA). When I was near my home, strangers that I saw only once would either emotionally harass me or spy on me (child spying is described in my third paragraph). A hacker could spy on my laptop or smartphone (WiFi Snooping: Whos Spying On Your Laptop?, KMOV.com). Company employees can view customer information like my online email account, my bank account, and my brokerage account (Employees Snoop On Customer Data, ABCNews.Go.com). My harassers often have information (negative and positive) that I did not reveal to anyone.
I was VERY ANGRY at the beginning of the emotional harassment (in 2001), but I got used to it. In 2010, my Commanding Officer (O-6 rank) forced me to see a psychiatrist even though I felt fine. I learned that the Navy does not need a very good reason to make a service member see a psychiatrist. I took a psychological test, and I talked to the psychiatrist. At the beginning of the session, I put a tape recorder on the table. I told the psychiatrist that I will record the entire session. I did not tell her that if I received an unfair diagnosis, then I would have used the tapes to get a second opinion from a psychiatrist that I would have hired. One year after I left the Navy, I destroyed the tapes. The psychiatrist decided that I should live at a Navy mental hospital for three days for observation. The Navy mental hospital told me that I did not have any mental disorders.
The psychiatrist said that information from my session would be revealed to my high-level supervisors (E-9 rank and above). Even if I was not warned, I would not have told the psychiatrist anything that I did not want the entire world to know. The harassers at my new job location and near my home knew specific things that I told the psychiatrist. The harassers were unable to get any damaging information. Before my 2005 re-enlistment, I knew that I would leave the Navy in 2011 (Honorable Discharge as an E-5). The emotional harassment will last for the rest of my life because I will not become an ATM machine (paying child support for my alienated children that I am rarely allowed to contact). In the 1950s, if you werent married, people thought you were mentally ill, said Andrew J. Cherlin, a Johns Hopkins University sociologist who studies families (Married Couples At A Record Low, WashingtonPost.com).
The emotional harassment increased my desire to do research on marriage and fatherhood. The more research I did, the worse marriage and fatherhood looked. Marriage and fatherhood is much worse than the emotional harassment that I frequently deal with. I am used to the emotional harassment. The only major problem that I have is unemployment. Avoiding sex, marriage, and fatherhood means that I solved my future problems with family court and the unfair fatherhood laws BEFORE it was too late. If a large percentage of men boycotted family court and the unfair fatherhood laws for their entire life, then society would eventually be FORCED to create a better system. MGTOW (Men Going Their Own Way) in the United States and Herbivore Men in Japan are large groups of men that are avoiding sex, marriage, fatherhood, and Parental Alienation Syndrome.
A Promise to Ourselves by Alec Baldwin (book) and Divorce Corp by Joseph Sorge (book and DVD) exposes a broken family court system that frequently does not care about the best interests of the child. Any solution to family court and the unfair fatherhood laws should have the goal of preventing unfair changes to the improved system after the children are born. One possible solution would be to pass laws that create parental contracts (similar to prenuptial agreements) that cover child custody, child visitation, and child support payments. The parental contract could require both parents to allow yearly parental alienation awareness training for their children.
The parental contract laws would reduce the number of unfair negotiated contracts. The law would have mandatory minimum child support payments. The parental contracts would allow both parents to avoid paying child support if both parents have an equal amount of child custody. If the custodial parent refused a non-custodial parents child visitation, then there could be a two-part punishment in the parental contract (a flow reversal punishment). In the first part, the permanent non-custodial parent would get temporary custody of the children for at least one month. In the second part, the direction of the child support payments would reverse during the temporary custody period. The permanent custodial parent would have to pay child support. A fair system would mean that fewer non-custodial parents would have child support arrears. Allegations of child abuse would have to be proven in a CRIMINAL court. A conviction would authorize the criminal court (not the family court) to punish the defendant by canceling or by modifying their parental contract. Parents (married and unmarried) without a parental contract would be in another system.
I see why he deleted it.
greatauntoftriplets
(177,044 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)He seems quite serious about whatever it is......
I wish i knew what the fuck sometimes.....
greatauntoftriplets
(177,044 posts)No idea.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Response to sufrommich (Original post)
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bravenak
(34,648 posts)What's your damage? What does this even mean?
randys1
(16,286 posts)Seems he is saying it is understandable NOT to pay child support if your ex is making it hard for you to visit
fuck that, big time
MEN pay fucking child support NO MATTER WHAT
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I've heard it all before, i find him to be uninteresting and possibly irrational. The cry baby attitude towards child support baffles me. Do they want to starve the children because they can't see them? It makes me ponder the cases where men have killed their children rather than return them to their ex wives. It could be possible that some women need the money to support the children, but at the same time fear for the safety of their children. Do the people who would rather starve their children than to pay, turn into the ones who would kill them rather than share? This should be studied by the appropriate people.
BainsBane
(54,982 posts)but it's the justification they use that is so irritating, and it is MRA bullshit. That is what they draw on to explain why they go their own way. What ever happened to just doing your own thing without making it into some half-baked political ideology?
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)a condom. They should be apply the condom without any help from their partner.
Thus, proving their own responsibility to fathering children or acquiring or transmitting any STDs.
ismnotwasm
(42,482 posts)Which is creepy beyond belief
BainsBane
(54,982 posts)requires cleanup.