Rape culture, patriarchy, pornography, and socialized acquiescence

[redqueen]

“…I thought I was alive before feminism but it turned out I was comatose. Only with feminism did I realize what life looked like. And when I say feminism I mean radical feminism. I mean the, ‘in-your-face’, ‘take-no-prisoners’, ‘we’ve-had-enough’ feminism.”

Dr. Gail Dines addressing porn culture and rape culture’s intersecting roles in patriarchy.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

1. Gail Dines is a transphobic bigot.

http://www.feminisnt.com/2013/gail-dines-former-assistantprotege-speaks-out-against-her-ex-mentor/



RadFem should be classified as a hate group.

[redqueen]

2. Stating that she thinks that reinforcing gender norms is not helpful doesnt make her a "transphobic

bigot".

I get why a lot of people want to silence Gail Dines, though, and try to stop anything she has said from being shared. Truly, I do.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

4. Referring to a Trans woman as a man makes her a bigot.

i quickly abandoned ship on those projects, and began to adopt her perspective: refusing to acknowledge transgender activists’ gender identity, saying more than once how outrageous it was, for example, that “a man be in charge of the lesbian avengers” (when in fact she was a transgender lesbian, not a man).

http://ontheblank.com/2013/01/on-the-ex-mentor-gail-dines-part-2-2/


I'm sorry that you think transphobia is ok, unfortunately for you, your form of "feminism" (as hateful against trans people as it may be) is on it's way out and a new crop of enlightened feminism is springing up.



I don't want to silence Gale Dines, she does a fine job of exposing RadFem movement as a hate group.

[redqueen]

6. Stop lying. I don't think transphobia is OK.

IF that link isn't lying and she actually referred to a trans woman as a man, that is definitely rude and transphobic.

That doesn't make her a transphobic bigot though, just like people referring to women with anti-woman slurs doesnt make them a misogynist bigot. (And the latter is more hateful but also more socially acceptable, go figure).

[ForgoTheConsequence]

8. I disagree.

Using misogynistic slurs does make someone a bigot, same with racist and xenophobic slurs.



Arguing that trans woman shouldn't be able to attended an all woman's university is bigoted.

[redqueen]

11. So a good number of DUers are misogynist bigots?

You need to calm yourself. Many people are just not aware of how harmful their words are. Some are actually misogynist bigots, but mostly not.

So yeah, we will have to disagree on that.

Now, anything at all to say about girls being socialized to put up with metric shit tons of crap from men?

[ForgoTheConsequence]

16. Anything to say?

I wish we could hit the reset button on society in general. I don't think it's just girls who are socialized, boys are also, which is sad in its own way. Ideally people would be people and our identities wouldn't be based on whats between your legs, but something else entirely.

[redqueen]

3. Oh, and using the term Radfem the way you did simply shows you know nothing about radical feminism.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

5. Yawn.

Don't give me that semantics bullshit. She identifies with Radical Feminism and speaks at RadFem conferences (with other transphobic bigots). I have no patience for RadFem bigots and the way they bully trans persons.



I know enough to know that these groups have actively bullied and fought against the civil rights of an already marginalized group.

[NuclearDem]

10. Rad fem isn't bigoted.

WBW and TERF, absolutely. But those are subsets.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

13. They're certainly trying to shed that image.

Barring Sheila Jeffreys was a start. But the TERF separation is a relatively recent phenomenon, there is no doubt that some of the most influential RadFem minds of the 70's and 80's were transphobic bigots.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

7. While we're at it, let's get you on record.

Since you have an affinity for posting videos from bigots, answer a few questions for me.



Do you believe that a trans woman is really a woman?

Do you believe that a trans woman should be able to use the woman's restroom?

Do you believe that a trans woman should be able to attend an all woman's college?

[redqueen]

9. Oh. My. Goddess. Are you seriously trying to start this shit again?

Do you have some kind of notice set up so you can swoop in at every opportunity to stir shit?

Why don't you try, oh I dunno, actually commenting on the substance of the OP?

[ForgoTheConsequence]

12. Please answer yes or no.

Three simple questions.



If someone posted videos or an article by David Duke or Pat Buchanan I would hope people would be just as outraged.

"I also suggest anything by Sheila Jeffreys as she applies
radical feminism to a wide range of topics. Her new book on
beauty is excellent." - Gail Dines

Sheila Jeffrey's FYI is one of the most hateful anti trans bigots out there today, she makes the religious right look sympathetic.




If you don't understand why someone might be offended by you posting a video of someone or an article written by someone who hates them or even denies their identity, I don't know what to tell you. You posting this shit is no different than someone posting some Male Rights bullshit.

[redqueen]

14. People have posted stuff from MRAs and even rape apologists without anyone going all McCarthy on the

as you are doing here.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

18. Someone should have.

If it were up to me any MRA thread would be immediately shut down. The people who post those do it for no other reason than to stir shit up.

[intaglio]

24. WTF are you posting about? If you have a point start your own thread

Derailing is trolling. If you think that your post has any bearing on this, current OP please explain it and do not assume everyone else is clairvoyant.

[yawnmaster]

15. Wow. at the time I am writing there are only ad hominems and appeal to motive falacies...

not a single discussion of the argument itself. (including this post)

[Tuesday Afternoon]

17. you noticed it, too.

add yet another off-topic post to the count.

[yawnmaster]

19. Oh yeah. (and this is one further off topic)...

Think I'm headed for a few minutes of cleansing in the lounge then back to GD.

[redqueen]

20. Should I just delete it?

I just saw this gifset and quote and thought they were worth sharing. My mistake.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

21. No, I don't think it needs deleting. It is a worthy disucssion somewhere in here.

I think ForgoTheConsequence should post the exact quote from the link provided to substantiate the claim being made. That would help.

I read some of the link ... and, in private Dines has said some ... things that could be rather classicist.

I think ForgoTheConsequence should be reminded that this a protected group and base their actions accordingly.

[redqueen]

22. I barely know who Dines is. I've seen some quotes by her on porn and rape culture

and I agree strongly. That's the only stuff I see reblogged though. Not the stuff about calling trans women men or how they shouldnt be allowed in women's restrooms. I'm disappointed that she'd stoop that low but I've seen worse here on du. Stuff about how women sometimes sau no when they mean yes so date rape is kinda understandable / their fault. About how feminists shiuld shut up abiut sexual harassment and how women who complain about it are jealous / will miss the attention when they're old, etc. etc. ad nauseam.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

23. I understand what you are saying. I am

Having trouble understanding forgo which is why I asked for a direct quote.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

25. Socialized acquiescence. She's right about that part.

Socialized paralysis. Yep.

[ismnotwasm]

26. She not a TERF

But certain men's groups and feminist groups don't like her stance on pornography, and have spread misinformation.

On the other hand, she can't be considered Trans inclusive either, (which makes her an asshole IMO) so while I get her lecture on pornography, what happened a few years back was a lot of controversy brewing in feminist intellectual circles, along with the sex positive movement---while intersexed or Trans people were getting their voice.

The thing about being Trans-- your choices are limited by gender identification. If you are a woman, and wish to be identified as one, there is a certain appearance. My friend-- who is middle aged and is growing out her grey, and is a badass Vietnam Vet, wears a bit of make up wears earrings and dresses in clothes that identify her as female.
Germaine Greer was criticized because in her book " The Whole Woman" she came across as Trans-exclusive, if not actively transphobic. She compounded this by some repulsive article-- I forget where--she wrote. Her premise (if I remember right) revolved around the idea of being female not being about hair, and make up and skirts.

Here's a brief critique of he book, which is very good. For being brief.

It is also in this section Greer tries to rally up feminists not to accept trans people as female, arguing that at the end of the day, trans people can never be female because they do not have the sex chromosomes for it. This argument really surprised me as generally feminists are very pro trans people out of a very simple explanation - feminists believe that gender is a social construct, that is to say that femininities and masculinities are something that we are taught, something we are socialised into, rather than something that is biologically determined. Therefore gender is fluid, and the key issue is what gender someone identifies as, not what they were born as. If someone who was not born biologically female identifies as a female, this person will be female to most feminists. That Greer, who has been one of the most prominent feminists for a long time, would fail to make this separation between sex and gender is just unbelievable. As the book goes on, however, it is not so shocking anymore, as Greer seems to take a more "back to nature" stance with sex and genders, putting much emphasis on woman as a sex and gender as well as gender as a social construct. To me, the extent to which she focuses on the female sex in the first section somewhat contradicts her thoughts on gender in the social later on. But it does raise an important point even though it perhaps does not explicitly say so - the point of the third gender, or rather the lack thereof everywhere but in Australia.

http://feminismandtea.blogspot.com/2011/02/whole-woman-by-germaine-greer.html

And here is an interesting debate on Gail Dines--I selected an excerpt that is well written and very, very angry, to show how the Trans community reacts to being excluded:

(Note the date-- 2009)

I am amazed that after that lengthy discussion of transphobia
as it relates to feminism and to restroom access, that someone
would not only recommend the work of Sheila Jeffreys but term
it "excellent." Sheila Jeffreys is one of the most rabid,
hatemongering transphobic bigots I have ever read. (See some of
her transphobic diatribes in her book Unpacking Queer
Politics.) While we are at it, why don't we also recommend
Janice Raymond and Mary Daly, two additional "radicals" who did
much to drive feminism into the ground with their hate-filled
and offensive diatribes? Calling Sheila Jeffreys as a good
example of radical feminism is like labeling Mary Daly's
Gyn/Ecology as a good example of multicultural feminism. The
good side of that is Audre Lorde's brilliant essay "An Open
Letter to Mary Daly" blew the lid off of the pervasive racism
in radical feminism. In response, Daly unsurprisingly shirked
her own responsibility by blaming racism on the patriarchy.

A noted trans scholar recently stated that, in terms of trans
women in lesbian/gay AND feminist communities, it's time to
call the question. What she meant is that there is NO more
debate about trans women and out lives, identities, and
politics. I repeat, OUR lives are not up for debate. We have
been in feminist and lesbian communities since the beginning,
and we are not going anywhere. Some of us will have surgery and
some won't; that is our choice, and it is not to be
interrogated by "radical" feminists with an ideological axe to
grind.

At a session on lesbian-feminism I attended a few years ago,
one of the participants identified herself as "Dyke-osaur." I
could not think of a better term for the likes of Sheila
Jeffreys and her ilk of transphobic, anti-sex followers, who
seemed trapped in a perpetual 1970s lesbian feminist time
warp. Luckily for a new generation of free-thinking feminists,
as well as older women who have stepped away from such
extremism, feminists like Sheila Jeffreys are rapidly becoming
extinct. I am amazed that people will excuse the work of
bigoted fanatics like Jeffreys, who use their writings to
oppress a minority group which is struggling to survive on

https://userpages.umbc.edu/~korenman/wmst/radicalfem.html

[Violet_Crumble]

27. I'm crap with acronyms, so I had to look up TERF...

So I know that stands for Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist. I don't know anything much about Dines, but if she's not Trans inclusive, what does that make her (apart from being an arsehole)? I get confused by this stuff, coz anyone who doesn't include all women is being trans exclusionary, and imo they're bigoted. But I don't know what Dines has said, and I'm aware as well that just because someone said things that doesn't mean they can't change their stance. I hope she has. I can handle her being opposed to porn, which I'm assuming she is, as that's merely a disagreement amongst feminists, but I can't handle feminists who aren't inclusive of transgender women...

[ismnotwasm]

28. I mean She doesn't appears to be a member of an TERF organization

They actively believe you need an XY or you can't join the club. I love her lecture on pornography, because there is a problem there--and I do know she's part of feminist academia--a tough place to navigate, and far too many names for me to keep up with.

I have no use for trans exclusionary bigotry either. When I first read Greer, I thought it made a certain sense - then I started really thinking about it--how damaging and harmful and cruel and bigoted it was. And like the critique said-- how she did it was strangely contradictory from other writings and conclusions ( I have the book-- I should go re-read that part)

One thing I found interesting looking her up were a couple of older threads in DU (not in feminist groups) accusing her of being right wing because of her stance on pornography, not particularly any perceived transphobia.

I hope she's changed her mind as well.

(On edit-- I just pulled out Greer's book and she basically says that Trans have a body disphoria kind of disorder, brought about by reinforcing false gender roles and stereotypes.

"As sufferers from gender role distress themselves, women must sympathize with transsexuals but a feminist must argue that the treatment for gender role distress is not the mutilation of the sufferer but radical change in gender roles" (The Whole Woman pg 71)-- she goes on to say that gender reassignment surgery reinforces those roles and become part of the problem, completely ignoring intersexed or ambiguously sexed persons)