Who else here is sick to death of the term 'slut shame'?

[redqueen]

Is it really so hard to see that the term normalizes the anti-woman slur?

That it further cements the idea that some girls or women are 'sluts'?

It's lazy. It's not helpful. Why is it so popular?

Imagine if any other bigoted slur was used in such a way.

[FarPoint]

1. I've not heard it used yet...

Ultimately, tweeking the verbage does not change the negative conitation.

[redqueen]

2. It's in the thread about the billionaire who molested his 12 year old stepdaughter.

That's what has me thinking of this again this morning.

[FarPoint]

4. Thank you for the reference...

I'll go and review.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

16. thank you. I did not understand the context of the OP. I must say that I never

hear the term in my real life. Thank god. Such a stupid, lazy meaningless term.

[giftedgirl77]

3. I have never understood it's purpose...

I take it back, I understand the purpose, but not in articles like the one you mentioned.

Wake & baking...

[TheBlackAdder]

5. I'm sick of it.

The term 'slut' is now being used in primary schools and colleges to denote promiscuous girls and boys.

It seems to be taking a more general connotation with the younger crowd.

[VanillaRhapsody]

12. it wasn't before?

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

48. I think you're talking past each other, unless you're being sarcastic.

His point was that it's becoming less gender-specific. (I don't know if he's right about that, I don't hang out with a lot of younger people.)

[seabeyond]

50. of course it is not becoming non gender specific. a man still gets a pat for "getting" it. a woman

still get called a slut for "giving" it.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

52. I was referring spiecifically to his post about

the word 'slut', not to any interpretation of how the word is used differently by either gender, or as applied to either gender.

[VanillaRhapsody]

55. that's just plain bullshit....Men have never been shamed for being sexual and enjoying sex....

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

62. Ok, I'm out of here.

I was simply trying to clarify what a prior commenter was saying, since you didn't seem to even understand his comment. I was not endorsing anything about the prior post or even agreeing with it. If you wanted to call 'bullshit' on the person who actually made any such claim, you might have wanted to respond to the person who did.

[seabeyond]

64. different posters. but ya. i hear what he was meaning. we get that. we have heard it enough.

but, i let it go when you clarified you were explaining. many will piggy back with thought though, when a poster says something. not necessarily toward the poster, but what was said.

we hear what people mean. the point of the OP is we disagree, and this is why...

[Flatulo]

69. I've heard my nephews use it to describe males, but it was praise, similar to 'stud-muffin'.

So there you go - the same phrase takes on different meanings depending on whom it's applied to. Boy slut = awesome! Girl slut = dirty, sinful, shameful.

[seabeyond]

71. absolutely and why lie to ourselves. certainly will not encourage progression.

that is something we stay in awareness in this house with 19 and 16 yr old sons, exploring relationships. we all tend toward this. we all need ot be aware what we create in it. that is all.

[VanillaRhapsody]

54. Uh I find that not believable....

not gender specific....GMAFB!

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

63. Then take it up with him.

Not me. I'm not making any claim here, just clarifying what he appeared to be saying, since you didn't appear to even see what he was trying to say.

[BainsBane]

6. I am

It also fails to capture the fact that women are shamed for their sexuality generally, whether it's accusations of sexual promiscuity or being a prude or sex-negative.

[redqueen]

8. Thank you, that is a VERY important point.

Just one more way to steer the discourse.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

17. exactly!

[MH1]

7. I never liked it at all.

I don't think it's useful to use the term "slut" in any context that is purportedly intended to support women.

The idea that a sexually promiscuous woman should be shamed in any way of course should be challenged. But I don't think this term is effective in doing that.

JMHO though, so I've never made a big deal of it before.

[DesertDiamond]

9. I totally agree!

[Android3.14]

10. Never heard the term

Ever.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

30. you have now. Welcome. What is your first impression of the term?

[Android3.14]

46. Sounds cumbersome

Dickhead seems to be a more appropriate, effective and easily understood term.
Workers whistle at passing woman in high heels - "Hubba Hubba!"
Appropriately disgusted passerby without much sense of language - "Stop slut shaming that woman!"
Woman wearing high heels rolls down window of taxi as it pulls away - "Dickheads!"

[Tuesday Afternoon]

47. you think those workers are slut shaming that woman ... ?

they are objectifying her and injecting her into their fantasy.

I don't see that as slut shaming.

Slut shaming (also hyphenated, as slut-shaming) is a concept in human sexuality. It is a neologism used to describe the act of making a person, especially a woman, feel guilty or inferior for certain sexual behaviors or desires that deviate from traditional or orthodox gender expectations, or that which may be considered to be contrary to natural or religious law. Some examples of circumstances where women are "slut-shamed" include: violating accepted dress codes by dressing in sexually provocative ways, requesting access to birth control,[1][2][3] having premarital or casual sex, or being raped or sexually assaulted.[4]

more at link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slut-shaming

[Android3.14]

53. If it's that complicated

Then I'm unsurprised I've never heard the term.

That was the definition I had looked up. "violating accepted dress codes by dressing in sexually provocative ways" as in wearing high heels and people making her feel inferior for it.

Regardless. The OP was upset at the term, because it contains the slur, and asked our opinion. My opinion is that the term is cumbersome. If people find it offensive, then don't use it. Though "inappropriately sexually promiscuous individual shaming", while lacking the slur, is even more cumbersome.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

61. Why shame anyone for their sexual proclivities?

[Squinch]

11. Yeah. It sucks. This whole concept of "taking back" terminology doesn't work.

This phrase began to be used in conversations among women in which the message was that we should not shame other women on the basis of their sexuality. But it just normalizes the slur, and instead of saying "be proud of the gift of your sexuality" it says "don't be ashamed you are a slut."

None of these "reclaimed" words ever really changes meaning by dint of the "reclamation."

[redqueen]

27. Exactly, thank you for saying it so well.

[StevieM]

13. Speaking as someone who hates the word "slut," I think the phrase "slut-shaming"

is a little different.

First, let me say that I can easily change my mind here. I'm not emphatic about this point, and I can be persuaded that I am wrong.

But I think the phrase "slut-shaming" is referring to the attitude of those behaving disrespectfully towards women and demanding the right to sovereignty over their sexuality. In other words, it is attempting to belittle those who see women in that manner. The point is to reject their values and terminology, not to accept or reclaim it.

That is how I always took the phrase. I saw it as an effort to reject the legitimacy of labeling anyone a "slut."

[Tuesday Afternoon]

24. your post makes no sense to me.

I think you have the use of the term backwards.

[redqueen]

28. Yes, I understand the way it's used, but it doesn't change the fact

that using the term requires the rhetorical admission that there is a logical reason to consider a girl or woman to be a 'slut'.

Try to imagine a different slur used in that same way, and you'll see how ridiculous it is.

[Squinch]

56. I think you are correct about how it is meant, but the fact remains that we are

referring to women as sluts simply because they are sexual. I agree that it is meant to reject their values, but instead it seems to me that it incorporates those values and belittles the sexuality it is trying to defend.

[seabeyond]

14. yes. i am saying to my boys. that there is even a term, is the issue.

tricky to digest.... navigate.

[paulkienitz]

15. I see the term as a positive development

This is the first time that popular culture has even considered the idea that maybe having an adventurous sex life is no grounds for any embarrassment.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

18. ?

your post makes no sense to me.

the term *slut-shaming* is being discussed not the word *slut*.

there is a difference.

not sure I agree with what you are saying in any case.

[paulkienitz]

20. I'm saying the same as Stevie M

The term came about because people are challenging the shamers of sexuality.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

25. his post makes no sense to me, either.

[seabeyond]

19. read baines above. the point. approaching as you do also allows the prude shaming. same thing,

other side of the isle. and is still a shaming of womens sexuality. one way or another.

it is not the freedom in sexual choice

it is eliminating using sexuality as a weapon against women.

[paulkienitz]

21. that may be true but this is still a step forward from the prior status quo

[seabeyond]

22. not "that may be true". it is true. and it matters. and no. it is not a step forward. it is

cementing that slut is a viable word in any form. since it is used to control, dominate, shame and humiliate girls and women thru our sexuality, it is a wrong word to use for any reason. we cannot own it. any more than bitch, whore, or prude.

[paulkienitz]

26. in what way, to meet these standards, should the public respond to someone calling "slut"?

Bear in mind that any replacement term has to be short, punchy, catchy, and capable of spreading and becoming popular when unaccompanied by an explanatory context.

Since we now have one answer to that dilemma, disappointing though it may be, and before we had none at all, I still say it's progress.

[boston bean]

23. I'll agree it's lazy.

But it does get the point across sometimes when someone is shaming a woman for her sexuality, who she sleeps with, and the same standard is not applied to men.

I do agree that does not sufficiently connote the reverse which is just as prevalent in society. Which in some way demonizes women at the other side of the spectrum unfairly. That is where the laziness comes into play. How about people just stop judging women for who she sleeps with and when and whether she does or not. And that goes for both for both men and women, imo.

[redqueen]

29. It is a clumsy way to get the point across, though.

We now see the term used to shut down any criticism of anything having to do with sex. Criticizing objectification is labeled this way, and that's so laughably ignorant. So the usefulness of the term is outweighed by its vagueness.

And as Bains said, it also helps to erase similar treatment which is heaped onto women labeled as 'prudes'.

[boston bean]

31. We probably need a word or phrase that includes

the entire spectrum of sexual judgment placed upon females.

[redqueen]

33. 'Misogyny' works for me. nt

[malthaussen]

41. Nailed that one, RQ. n/t

[Rozlee]

35. You're right. That standard is never applied to men.

I overheard my foster son and his friends arguing with the females in their study group about how you can't insult a guy by calling him a "man whore." It rolls off their backs. If you apply female sexual virtues to males like virginity, however, they'll get ridiculed. Sexual prowess in a male is always respected. Sexuality in females is almost like a caste system. Promiscuity in women practically relegates them to untouchable status except as vessels of convenience. Perceived sexual "purity" and sexual restraint in women are more respected by males. Sex equates to power and domination. Women should never have power that is reserved for males.

[seabeyond]

44. and this is what we should go after. the god like status we give male sexuality. i call bullshit. nt

[malthaussen]

32. Not in my lexicon, as it happens.

Never could quite figure out what this "slut" thing was supposed to be. I'll agree with you, though, that such a term certainly carries with it the validation of the concept that "slut" exists, and is worthy of shame. I imagine it's popular because it's lazy and not helpful. And allows those who use it to display their suppositious superiority.

-- Mal

[redqueen]

37. It's a useless term.

This piece from the Atlantic does a good job of describing how nonsensical it is.

There's No Such Thing as a Slut

[malthaussen]

39. No, it's a useful term.

The use that is made of it is mendacious, arbitrary, malicious, and self-congratulatory, but like most omnibus terms of contempt, it's purpose is to give the user a chance to exult in his own superiority, and not to convey any useful information.

-- Mal

[msanthrope]

34. I think you and I have had discussions about a particular term that you have used

that I find to be an anti-woman normalization.

I think that such terms should not be used.

[seabeyond]

45. then discuss it with the pro porn people, that you obsess so over that terminology.

that is who uses it. that is who made it up. that is who feels the want to create women as just that.

and in talking about that mentality, redq used the word. YOU pretend, regardless of a number of times being told otherwise, gotta pretend that she was saying it about women. regardless of the number of time her comment was put for all to see.

you are playing games.

do not come into this forum, and play the stupid ass games you and others do in GD repeatedly to keep a fuggin two year battle going.

[msanthrope]

58. I have never met a male, or a "pro-porn" person on this board who has used the term I am

referencing.

Only women.

[MadrasT]

59. If you google that term, 5 of the top 10 returns are porn.

One is urban dictionary.

The other 4 are in a different context.

And nobody on this board EVER labelled women with that term.

(And I don't watch porn, so Google is not delivering me results weighted toward porn based on my browsing history.)

Repeating the same lie over and over does not make it true.

[msanthrope]

60. If I google that term on this site, the results are exactly as I have noted. I do not

comment on beyond this site. On this site..that is a term used by women.

Words matter. This is a disgusting one that should be deleted.

[seabeyond]

65. you KNOW the context it was used. and you are using THAT to attack a poster you do not like

repeatedly. for two years. knowing damn well it is not what you make it out to be.

and... you run away from where the word came from, cause you have NO desire to fight that battle.

that would be hypocritical and dishonest in using it against redq repeatedly, well aware she was not calling women that.

[theHandpuppet]

36. Thanks for a perspective I hasn't considered

To be honest, I hadn't even heard this phrase except on DU.

[Half-Century Man]

38. It is just one facet of the turd gem that is sexual prejudice.

Homosexuality, promiscuity, prudishness, masturbation, mutually consensual fantasy/role play, multi-partnered, etc; have all been used to label some group as "outsider". When you post a label of "outsider", you automatically go to a "them or us" equation. Somebody loses, often for no good reason.

[mackerel]

40. I predominantly used the word slut

when referring to men.

[ismnotwasm]

42. Me. I tried it out a few times, and I was never comfortable with it

It actually makes a judgement call on someone's sexuality, because it's a noun. On the other hand, they're is a lot of feminist attempts to"reclaim" the word--/use it in so many venues it loses it's meaning. Without equalized gender and sexual orientation in sexuality, That won't work.

Because we're still clearly in the middle of a major power struggle, and have a long way to go. Call a man a slut, it's practically a term of endearment call a woman a slut, well that's something else entirely.

[redqueen]

43. I think most feminists have realized that reclaiming it is only possible for privileged women.

Or at least they should have. Many did.

http://www.blackwomensblueprint.org/2011/09/23/an-open-letter-from-black-women-to-the-slutwalk/

[Flatulo]

70. It is indeed praise

when applied to a young male by his peers. I've heard my nephews using it to describe the awesomeness of some guy they know because he's slept around.

[MadrasT]

49. I deplore it.

It just says "Hey it's OK to be a slut." Not helpful, because to many if not most people, "slut" is still an ugly word with negative connotations.

I am sick to death of women being judged by their degree of sexuality, manner of sexual expression, and manner(s) of having sex. It isn't anybody's fucking business (other than the other person or people that woman is being sexual with, and even then, only if *she* cares to discuss it with them).

[Warpy]

51. Because it exists

Ordinary women and girls doing ordinary things are labeled sluts and heavily shamed.

Look at Sandra Fluke, shamed because she described someone else's need for hormonal birth control for other medical reasons.

You're just going to have to deal with this one.

[redqueen]

57. I know that misogynist assholes and ignorant people use the word 'slut'.

My question is about why feminists or people who care about fighting misogyny would use the term 'slut shame'.

[Violet_Crumble]

66. I don't really get it...

It's not a term I've heard in real life, but I've seen it used on the internet. If it's some ''claiming back the word' thing, I don't think it works at all. It comes off as a slur, and I haven't really seen it used in any context that makes me think otherwise...

[TorchTheWitch]

67. I have ALWAYS despised this saying

I don't see any way around using this phrase and not branding the person a slut. The "slut walk" pisses me off for the same reason as well "save the boobies" (as if breast cancer is all about saving breasts rather than saving lives especially since NOT saving one or both DOES literally mean saving lives, and many women DO die trying other ways to beat the disease to avoid losing the "all-powerful" breast that should never have that power to supposedly define a female to begin with). My mother is a very long time survivor of breast cancer because she DIDN'T believe that saving a breast was so important to define her femaleness, and had it removed the day after she found out she had breast cancer. Had she opted for other options that may have saved the breast she may have died and would have had to go through debilitating chemo treatments when having it removed saved her from any chemo or even radiation.

Seems to me that all these phrases do is make a REALLY stupid attempt to "own" the word or "take it back" which makes no sense to me at all since the very LAST thing I want to do is own it much less accept it at all or "take back" something I always rejected like poison.

Words have meaning. Using words or phrases that are unquestionably slurs in ways that try to "tame" them and make them lose their power is exactly the wrong thing to do since words or phrases that lose their power make people more COMFORTABLE in using them but without changing their meaning one iota. No way in hell do I want any bigoted slurs lose their power when they don't have ENOUGH power to even convince people they ARE slurs.

[redqueen]

68. Wish I could rec your post.

So very well said.