History of Feminism
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Has anyone else noticed the hilarious and apparently non-ironic posts that are all over the alleged censorship discussions these past couple of days? You know, the ones that boil down to, "You are not allowed to use certain words when you complain about certain other words - because your use of the words that I object to is censorship. So is your complaining about the words I don't object to. Everyone should be allowed to use whatever words they want. Except you, right now, and those words you just said."
I mean, seriously, I don't think this stuff has been given its due.
Lets collect these gems in one thread, and tomorrow we can all tell which are our favorites. I suggest we don't attribute the comments to avoid calling out, but just paraphrase or summarize. I'll start with my three favorites:
First, in boston bean's thread, I was told that her use of the word "ought," when she said RP ought to consider not using homophobic or sexist slurs, was an unacceptable and terrible form of censorship because her use of that word meant bb was forcing RP to change the words he writes. Which, of course, is really, really mean of her.
Second, the poster who said that the phrase "Word X is offensive" is an acceptable phrase to use, but "Don't say word X" is ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLE and is really, really mean censorship.
Third, and this I just love, are these very numerous posts saying, "self censorship is really, really mean censorship." Which could be paraphrased, "But I LIKE peeing in the frozen food aisle!!! Quit censoring me!"
So which are your favorites?
CTyankee
(65,450 posts)whoever. I just wonder what it is that we "ruined." Do we have magic power over people's lives? Is life over? Like the peasant in the Monty Python movie "Help! I'm being oppressed!"
Squinch
(53,487 posts)shenmue
(38,538 posts)BainsBane
(55,074 posts)and wrote this OP last night addressing that very point:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025129963
Squinch
(53,487 posts)This, exactly:
BainsBane
(55,074 posts)Squinch
(53,487 posts)exercises their free speech.
boston bean
(36,539 posts)This quite eloquently summarizes what one will find on DU this week.
278. No, I perfectly get that there's a horde of big pearl clutching babies
who when confronted with the fact that words have a real power to hurt and see even the mildest of suggestions from any group that's been a target of those words about how to alleviate it shit themselves and throw a big fucking infantile tantrum until the grownups give them their toy back.
The same spoiled brats who after their morning jerkoff to 1984 take to the internet to scream down feminists and minority groups for daring to speak about rape culture, white privilege, or male privilege because it hurts their precious fee-fees, and receive pathetic congratulatory pats on the back from the rest of the brogressives and brocialists for a job well done standing up for the plight of the self-entitled white man made uncomfortable.
Suggesting the slightest amount of self-censorship (OOGA BOOGA BOOGA) isn't the crime of the fucking century. In fact, outside of the discussion of the words themselves, I've happily struck n****r, s***k, w*****k, and a whole shit-stained laundry list of words from my lexicon. And yet, through some miracle of the English language, I'm still able to express complex ideas and make a point! I can even still use salty language! Also, shockingly, I don't even fucking miss calling a woman a c**t or telling other men to stop being a p***y. Imagine that!
As far as the "duh, well if you don't want to be offended, don't read it!" totally unironic attempt at censorship masquerading as advice, if someone actually thinks simply avoiding the ground zero of hurtful words in any way alleviates the problem...well, let me take your footprints because you were apparently born yesterday. All it takes is for one fucking moron to look at what's supposed to be a progressive community, see this absolute garbage heap of hate and--fucking ta da!--instant validation. If progressives, who are supposed to be the right ones are giving these words a pass, then I guess I can use them after all!
And that asshole is not going to be as eloquent as TRP.
So, cry, whine, and throw your little fits about creeping censorship, but frankly, if words like f*g, f****t, or f***y b*y had been eradicated from the English language by a cultural understanding that words, much the same way as guns, have the very real power to hurt and both should be used with the utmost responsibility and care, then maybe my friend's parents wouldn't have had to find him dangling from a fucking rope in his closet.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5126773
That's a thing of beauty.
BainsBane
(55,074 posts)Absolutely perfect!
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)Nicely done, NuclearDem. Very nicely done. Thank you.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)BainsBane
(55,074 posts)A wonderful ally.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)was an OP bemoaning all the meta (from somebody who has posted several of the 'meta' OPs, iirc) and saying how we need to get back to talking about 'real things'. Because misogyny isn't 'real', of course.
But my fave, over and over, was the assumption that complaining about misogyny and homophobia was all simply 'me being a delicate flower' and 'me being offended' (where 'me' = anyone who points out such posts) or 'hating' things. I'm not in any shape or form a 'delicate flower', nor am I the one being injured directly by the maintenance of a misogynistic patriarchy. I'm among the privileged. I'm not trying to defend myself from offense, I'm not trying to 'censor' anyone. I'm trying to get them to realize that they're doing all they can to keep women feeling the internet is an unsafe environment, populated by neaderthals who think that women are nothing more than sex toys and should be just fine with being abused with sexually violent verbal imagery. For them to take misogyny as seriously as they take racism.
I want my housemate's niece to grow up politically aware and active, but I'll be damned if I can introduce her to any of the political blogs I've been on with any sense that she won't absorb the idea that her role in life is to be a victim. This is a 'real thing', and I want it dealt with before the next generation of political activists hit the site.
boston bean
(36,539 posts)delicate flower, aunt bea, fainting couch, book burner, sensitive are the most used canards.
Squinch
(53,487 posts)Well, you know, it's forbidden for you to talk about misogyny and homophobia and I would add racism, because when you talk about those things, it's censorship. So don't dare talk about them!
redqueen
(115,173 posts)One of them even had the gall to try this 'more important things' bullshit WHILE KICKING THE FUCKING MESS.
Stupidity knows no bounds.
boston bean
(36,539 posts)I didn't type anything out on Iraq.
Mea culpa, it was true. I did not type anything out on Iraq. Why, cause I don't know what the fuck to think at this very fucking moment about it. It's quite a hairy situation. I'm reading and learning, trying to form an opinion.
BainsBane
(55,074 posts)and defend them so vociferously? They insult women as c...ts because that word expresses perfectly how they see women, and the same goes for other bigoted slurs. They are only words. True. But like all words they signal the user's meaning, and by choosing those words they have made themselves crystal clear.
boston bean
(36,539 posts)Last edited Sat Jun 21, 2014, 03:38 PM - Edit history (1)
read.
Rude Pundit doesn't have to change a thing about how he writes as far as I'm concerned. The fact that you think he does means that not only do you want to control what he writes, you therefore also want to control what I can read.
So, yeah. Not all that different from book-burning when it comes down to it.
You'll notice no one denies RP uses sexist/homophobic comments in his writings that are directed at others, trying to insult individuals. He isn't using them as a play on words to show how how sexist and homophobic it is, he uses them as insults to attack others.
The umbrage is that I actually suggested (here on a liberal message board) he not do that because it wasn't necessary. My suggestion was the much greater offense. And spawned multiple book burning/censorship OP's and posts.
Hello people, a mild critique of someone's writing with a compliment + a suggestion, does not a book burner make....
Squinch
(53,487 posts)I kept pointing out that you had done nothing more than politely express an opinion, but they all saw through it to your evil super powers of remote-controlling-what-other-people-read!
That's a perfect example: It's OK for her to express her opinion that "As far as I am concerned the RP doesn't need to change." But your opinion that he should avoid racist and homophobic slurs MUST NOT BE SPOKEN!!!!! And you, somehow in that pretzel logic, are the one censoring.
You meany.
boston bean
(36,539 posts)Squinch
(53,487 posts)OMG! I just looked into her eyes, and someone took over my eyes and hands! I can't say or think anything I want to!
***I love Dick Cheney***
Dammit, Boston, cut it out!!!!!
boston bean
(36,539 posts)prudet, prudet, prudet, prudet, prudet.
Click heels three time, blink twice, say bumbledeebumbledeedum once, and give a thumbs up to a toad. That will break the spell.
Squinch
(53,487 posts)boston bean
(36,539 posts)Squinch
(53,487 posts)redqueen
(115,173 posts)Squinch
(53,487 posts)CrispyQ
(38,745 posts)My take? I support freedom of speech, but that doesn't mean that I don't want standards for the communities I'm a part of. I see this in our society, too. Because we can do something, we do do it. Why? Somethings are harmful to decent communities & we should be able to say, okay, you have the right to say this, but we have the right to shame you because those don't meet the standards of our community.
There is a very junior high element in this community that is allowed to stand. I use the hide thread feature more than ever. A few weeks ago when they went through their titty phase I was clicking fast & furious. How many times have members said, "If only so-and-so (insert big name democrat here) read DU." And when they come here & see some of this crap?
Squinch
(53,487 posts)fight that is really quite revolting and shows that there truly are men running around here who despise women and think women are subhuman.
I can laugh at this hypocrisy aspect. The other aspect just frightens and nauseates me.
jtuck004
(15,882 posts)Squinch
(53,487 posts)jtuck004
(15,882 posts)Squinch
(53,487 posts)jtuck004
(15,882 posts)smallcat88
(426 posts)we use to communicate. Quibbling over words is a very old, tired argument - like the old don't use 'four letter words' nonsense. It's HOW words are used that are important. Anything that expresses the idea of 'I thing you count less because you are black, a woman, LGBT, another religion, another nationality, etc, etc. can be offensive regardless of the words used.
Forget the words, concentrate on the message. If you're saying your opinion is more important because you are _____ and someone else's opinion is crap because they are _____ . . . Well, it depends on how you fill in the blanks. And then switch out whatever you fill in the blanks with. Would you still feel the same if you were in the other person's shoes?
So much that is offensive is a lack of empathy for anyone who doesn't see the world from your own point of view.
Gman
(24,780 posts)That usually goes along the lines of you're censoring my right to be an idiot. And so how could my messed up post possibly have made your life miserable even though it's the latest over the top crap posted by me and my friends in a long line of crap that only we see that way. But we 'll make you the enemy if you disagree and you're not a progressive.
Squinch
(53,487 posts)boston bean
(36,539 posts)Squinch
(53,487 posts)Prudets! They're what's for dinner!
boston bean
(36,539 posts)Prudets, Belarus!
The weather there doesn't look great for the week... Mostly rain and in the 60's.
Also another link shows Prudets, Belarus as a honeymoon location. LOL, too much!
Squinch
(53,487 posts)ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)So true.
Squinch
(53,487 posts)I love that zombie. I have to confess that I once stole it and put it in a note to my brother after his granddaughter was born with the caption, "Neeeeeed more baby pictures!...."
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)Zombies are fun.
MadrasT
(7,237 posts)BUT
The ones that make me chuckle are:
1) All the people screaming that YOU NEED TO SHUT UP AND STOP TELLING ME TO SHUT UP!!1!!1elevens!!! Because STIFLING FREE SPEECH is the WORST THING EVAH!!1!!! SO SHUT UP and STOP IT RIGHT NOW!!1!!!
(how do they not see the complete circular logic fail in that?)
2) As mentioned upthread, people who REPEATEDLY kick these threads whinging about WE NEED TO CONCENTRATE ON ACTUAL IMPORTANT THINGS!!1!!!!q!
Oh god that makes me
LOOK IN THE FLIPPING MIRROR.
Squinch
(53,487 posts)Squinch
(53,487 posts)http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5130447
boston bean
(36,539 posts)Squinch
(53,487 posts)DU is way overdue for a purge of the people who want to censor the people I agree with!
Edited to take out quotes, because it isn't a direct quote.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)Squinch
(53,487 posts)the poster said, it's way past time for a purge of these people who think this way.
Response to Squinch (Reply #55)
Tuesday Afternoon This message was self-deleted by its author.
BainsBane
(55,074 posts)"of people who think that way."
I can't tell you how many times I've been accused of thought crime by some of that same crowd.
ismnotwasm
(42,486 posts)I trashed that one too. Way to much fucking stupid.
BainsBane
(55,074 posts)People build their posts around fuck this or fuck that or even just fuck, or any other sort of vulgarity, because they have nothing else to say.
ismnotwasm
(42,486 posts)It's stupid as well as boring, and when one pops up-- I trash it. The ability to use vulgarity was never the point. Anybody can do that.
The point was the bigoted language encoded in certain vulgarities. Sure you can say it, use it to make your point. Over and over if that's all you got. As far having shock" value, that misses the point as well, because At the same time pointing out that bigoted language is disgusting bullshit is going to be the responses from many people, your perhaps valid point will missed, and your audience will have only limited thinking skills (unless they are repressed in some way)
Hysterical Twisting that idea as censorship is just plain weird, trolling by starting thread after thread about it is past weird and I don't want to play, whether it's the shit stirrers or the ones who are just deeply deluded.
CTyankee
(65,450 posts)Really?
BainsBane
(55,074 posts)on a post in HOF from more than six months ago, a post neither I nor Boston saw, that they saw and somehow insist it is our responsibility to spot within the 24 hour window and alert on it. There is no end to the hypocrisy. If they just came out and said what they mean: They and people who think exactly like them should be able to say anything and everything without censure, but anyone who disagrees with them should be silenced and banned. It really is no more complicated than that, but they lack the self-awareness and intellectual honesty to say so.
For the record, after surveying the various regular posters in this group, I don't actually think the alert on the Rude Pundit came from a HOF member, despite conspiracy theories to the contrary. It just shows how every incident on this site is but an opportunity to scapegoat. Here's a newflash. Feminists have free speech rights too. If you don't like our speech, don't read it! Quit surveilling HOF and its members 24/7 looking to alert on everything, including fucking threads about soccer games.
Squinch
(53,487 posts)But that won't ever pierce the wall of righteous indignation here.
Now, I WAS on the jury for that ridiculous alert on you last night. I was the one that called it a crappy and vindictive alert.
As far as this:
...I think in this latest episode, they did just that, and they did it completely openly. The great free-speechers came out very obviously and strongly in favor of the curtailment of the speech of all those who disagree with them.
At least we understand that the censure we have received, though asinine, is not censorship. They don't seem to be able to understand that either. Another hilariously misinformed phrase that has surfaced in these discussions is "censorship by censure."
And I think you are on to something here when you say they lack self-awareness. I begin to wonder if it actually is hypocrisy. I think for many it is just a real, deep ignorance and obliviousness. They simply are not capable of understanding that they are doing the same thing that they are complaining about others doing.
And about the post you didn't alert on, I am guessing they didn't alert on it either, so why are they complaining to you?
BainsBane
(55,074 posts)Of course they didn't alert on that post they complained about. If they were so concerned, they could have alerted even this weekend, but someone had bookmarks saved from many months ago, so obviously they saw it at some point.
Folks are evidently too busy alerting on my posts about soccer games and for "race baiting," observing that cops look very differently at African Americans who open carry than white people. Duh. Un-fucking real.
I think you are right that they aren't aware. That was clear in that thread insisting people had no right to suggest the RP moderate his language, but it's evident in virtually every conversation on the subject. I suppose my pointing out the hypocrisy is what has motivated this recent spree of alert stalking of me.
We've all acted hypocritically at points in life, but I like to think I have some awareness of it, or at least am capable of understanding that when it is pointed out.
Squinch
(53,487 posts)I am not someone who has a problem with most words. There are some I don't use, and some I don't want to see. I hate the c word, because it denigrates half the population, but I see there is leeway if you are in a pub in England. I don't use b* here, but I sometimes do IRL. (The dumpster one, though. That was just someone with problems with women trying to slam and dehumanize women in general. That was designed to insult, which I pointed it out in ATA, but I am guessing from experience that will die an unanswered death.)
On the other hand, I don't see the "brilliance" in RP everyone is touting; I usually find him pretty droningly rant-y, so I don't care if someone hides him because he swears. So I didn't have strong feelings either way with this. I didn't engage when the discussion was about whether certain words should be used.
But when the crap started in bb's thread, with people telling her she shouldn't be allowed to state HER opinion about the whole thing, it really pissed me off. And the way it deteriorated from there to now, where a lot of people's hatred is now saturating their writing, has been astonishingly ugly.
I love the "aftermath" posts, though. The worst offenders brushing themselves off, and saying "we all need to stop" when they were among the only ones that "need to stop." They're telling themselves, "It's OK I did it. Everyone did" when everyone didn't. It's like we are watching them wake up after a bender.
BainsBane
(55,074 posts)What is censorship by censure?
Squinch
(53,487 posts)censorship unless the censure is accompanied by censorship.
But whatever it is, it's really really mean. And only nannies do it.